Opinion of feminism

[Technocracy Timmy]

The correlation between the removal of lead and violent crime isn’t well established.

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[Intell]

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/07/video-game-violence-trump-meeting-esa-nra/

https://theconversation.com/why-violence-in-video-games-isnt-really-a-problem-92165

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

This is the same for their being some "muh" sexist roleplay of women in video games. Nobody notices these things and it doesn't create a sexist culture or whatever.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

I feel like people tend to underestimate the fact that media both shows and reinforces our values as a culture. Look at all the myths people believe because they were in all the movies. The mentality that leads to portraying women almost entirely as sex objects or damsels in distress is the same one that leads to sexual harrassment, minimization of rape, etc etc etc(video games are particularly odious BTW).

I guess as an adult person that has sufficient willpower as not to be influenced to assume things that happen in games are OK in real-life...leave my games alone or make them all 18+ requiring ID like tobacco if you want to be authoritarian about it.

lol, "leave my games alone". Ok honey. If you honestly think you're magically immune to stereotyping because you're an adult(who unironically says that feminists are allying with "Radical Islamists" to destroy "western values" and supports it by linking to a man who has literally said that women "destroy civilization" with treachery and sh*t), than you have a lot to learn.  https://www.nyu.edu/classes/jackson/causes.of.gender.inequality/Readings/Wood%20-%20Gendered%20Media%20-%2094.pdf

Also considering that you linked to an insane MRA and presumably watch him, so I'm not gonna give you any benefit of the doubt on sexism, esp. when you get offended by the idea that the kind of toxic male fantasies seen in video games aren't good.

GAMES CAUSE VIOLENCE, GAMES (tv shows, movies) ARE THE PROBLEM OF "X, Y, Z". This trope is ridiculous when done by the SJW left or the conservative right.

Media portrayals objectively change how we see the world and different groups, and you have to actively ignore science to say that they don't.
http://ontario.cmha.ca/wp-content/files/2012/07/moods_media_200812.pdf
http://sciencenordic.com/media-influences-our-attitude-towards-wealthy
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7e0/293918f3264401227e34d441e6b04bda132d.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248933230_Media_Influence_on_Citizen_Attitudes_Toward_Police_Effectiveness
Media can make us fear people with mental health problems, influence our attitude towards the wealthy, change how fat people are viewed, and influence perception of police effectiveness. It would be laughable to suggest that this influence magically goes away with horrifically sexist portrayals of women(in all media, but much more audaciously vile in video games and subtly devious in other media forms).

If you want take away people's outlets for their reptile-brain violent or sexual tendencies and move them from the video games to the real world, well that's on you.

TIL video games reduce crime rates.


(and before you claim that actually they did, the nineties was around when leaded gasoline was banned, which is the likely culprit. Also video game playing peaked way after the nineties.)

Even Polygon saw a correlation between video games sales spikes and drops in violent crime:

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/12/6141515/do-violent-video-games-actually-reduce-real-world-crime

And if you think that's more far-fetched than some wacky theory of the elimination of the use of leaded gasoline, then there will be no reasoning with you anyway.

Like half of polygon is video games. And its a single study. And it only proves a correlation. Which, considering that video game sales spike at a relatively consistent rate in the winter, basically proves that homicides and video game sales are both affected by winter weather. Also, they measure all games, not just violent ones.

Also, the idea that not getting see women treated like pieces of meat for male pleasure all the time will increase rapes is ludicrous. At best, rape has no real effect on sexual violence.
https://vawnet.org/material/pornography-and-sexual-violence  https://medium.com/@JonahMix/pornography-doesnt-cause-sexual-violence-it-is-sexual-violence-6ff8206407cb
http://www.calcasa.org/2010/03/what-is-the-influence-of-pornography-on-rape/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/is-pornography-driving-increased-sexual-violence-in-ireland-1.3508313
https://www.aauw.org/2009/06/12/effects-of-pornography-on-perceptions-of-women-and-sexual-violence/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22852438
And sexist male fantasies aren't even required for a game to be violent.

I don't see many leftists attacking porn over video games, so why the lopsidedness? I think people just want to mess with other people's happiness and why Sarkeesian is such a dislikable person.

[Sir Mohamed]

FP, I'm for equal rights and privileges.

LOL at the GOP numbers.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

I feel like people tend to underestimate the fact that media both shows and reinforces our values as a culture. Look at all the myths people believe because they were in all the movies. The mentality that leads to portraying women almost entirely as sex objects or damsels in distress is the same one that leads to sexual harrassment, minimization of rape, etc etc etc(video games are particularly odious BTW).

I guess as an adult person that has sufficient willpower as not to be influenced to assume things that happen in games are OK in real-life...leave my games alone or make them all 18+ requiring ID like tobacco if you want to be authoritarian about it.

lol, "leave my games alone". Ok honey. If you honestly think you're magically immune to stereotyping because you're an adult(who unironically says that feminists are allying with "Radical Islamists" to destroy "western values" and supports it by linking to a man who has literally said that women "destroy civilization" with treachery and sh*t), than you have a lot to learn.  https://www.nyu.edu/classes/jackson/causes.of.gender.inequality/Readings/Wood%20-%20Gendered%20Media%20-%2094.pdf

Also considering that you linked to an insane MRA and presumably watch him, so I'm not gonna give you any benefit of the doubt on sexism, esp. when you get offended by the idea that the kind of toxic male fantasies seen in video games aren't good.

GAMES CAUSE VIOLENCE, GAMES (tv shows, movies) ARE THE PROBLEM OF "X, Y, Z". This trope is ridiculous when done by the SJW left or the conservative right.

Media portrayals objectively change how we see the world and different groups, and you have to actively ignore science to say that they don't.
http://ontario.cmha.ca/wp-content/files/2012/07/moods_media_200812.pdf
http://sciencenordic.com/media-influences-our-attitude-towards-wealthy
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7e0/293918f3264401227e34d441e6b04bda132d.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248933230_Media_Influence_on_Citizen_Attitudes_Toward_Police_Effectiveness
Media can make us fear people with mental health problems, influence our attitude towards the wealthy, change how fat people are viewed, and influence perception of police effectiveness. It would be laughable to suggest that this influence magically goes away with horrifically sexist portrayals of women(in all media, but much more audaciously vile in video games and subtly devious in other media forms).

If you want take away people's outlets for their reptile-brain violent or sexual tendencies and move them from the video games to the real world, well that's on you.

TIL video games reduce crime rates.


(and before you claim that actually they did, the nineties was around when leaded gasoline was banned, which is the likely culprit. Also video game playing peaked way after the nineties.)

Even Polygon saw a correlation between video games sales spikes and drops in violent crime:

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/12/6141515/do-violent-video-games-actually-reduce-real-world-crime

And if you think that's more far-fetched than some wacky theory of the elimination of the use of leaded gasoline, then there will be no reasoning with you anyway.

Like half of polygon is video games. And its a single study. And it only proves a correlation. Which, considering that video game sales spike at a relatively consistent rate in the winter, basically proves that homicides and video game sales are both affected by winter weather. Also, they measure all games, not just violent ones.

Also, the idea that not getting see women treated like pieces of meat for male pleasure all the time will increase rapes is ludicrous. At best, rape has no real effect on sexual violence.
https://vawnet.org/material/pornography-and-sexual-violence  https://medium.com/@JonahMix/pornography-doesnt-cause-sexual-violence-it-is-sexual-violence-6ff8206407cb
http://www.calcasa.org/2010/03/what-is-the-influence-of-pornography-on-rape/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/is-pornography-driving-increased-sexual-violence-in-ireland-1.3508313
https://www.aauw.org/2009/06/12/effects-of-pornography-on-perceptions-of-women-and-sexual-violence/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22852438
And sexist male fantasies aren't even required for a game to be violent.

I don't see many leftists attacking porn over video games, so why the lopsidedness? I think people just want to mess with other people's happiness and why Sarkeesian is such a dislikable person.

This is the dumbest thing I've read today.

[Tartarus Sauce]

CrabCake has summarized the issue best so far in the thread, particularly the shallowness of most knee jerk anti-feminists. The majority of reactionary vitriol thrown at feminism tends to follow the logic of "nutpicking" where some belligerent, nasty tumblr user becomes identified as the standard bearer of all of feminist thought. The echo chamber that has arisen to degrade anything that could be remotely labeled as feminist tends to be completely clueless as to what most actual mainstream feminists believe, as demonstrated by the post made about how feminists are in alliance with Islamists (they aren't, feminists have actively exported their philosophy to the Muslim world, the opposite of aligning with reactionary Islamists who fear their women are being wooed by Western libertinism).


Feminism's main weakness, if anything, is how nebulous and broad it has become. The sheer grab bag of concepts it has incorporated and factions it has splintered into makes it rather difficult to make generalizations about, far more difficult than the broad brush strokes most of its critics like to paint it in. It's more radical elements are offputting to those who don't subscribe to such strident ideas and rhetoric, but that tends to be true of basically every radical faction of any ideology. My suspicion is the underlying drive for the particularly furious backlash that feminism experiences has to do with the uncertainity and insecurity that has been generated by the shifting norms and expressions of masculinity.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/07/video-game-violence-trump-meeting-esa-nra/

https://theconversation.com/why-violence-in-video-games-isnt-really-a-problem-92165

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

This is the same for their being some "muh" sexist roleplay of women in video games. Nobody notices these things and it doesn't create a sexist culture or whatever.

I didn't see this until now, but "video games don't cause more violence"(which mostly doesn't even cite studies" doesn't magically make a bunch of studies about medias impact of our opinion of social issues invalid.
Reminder:http://ontario.cmha.ca/wp-content/files/2012/07/moods_media_200812.pdf
http://sciencenordic.com/media-influences-our-attitude-towards-wealthy
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7e0/293918f3264401227e34d441e6b04bda132d.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248933230_Media_Influence_on_Citizen_Attitudes_Toward_Police_Effectiveness

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

CrabCake has summarized the issue best so far in the thread, particularly the shallowness of most knee jerk anti-feminists. The majority of reactionary vitriol thrown at feminism tends to follow the logic of "nutpicking" where some belligerent, nasty tumblr user becomes identified as the standard bearer of all of feminist thought. The echo chamber that has arisen to degrade anything that could be remotely labeled as feminist tends to be completely clueless as to what most actual mainstream feminists believe, as demonstrated by the post made about how feminists are in alliance with Islamists (they aren't, feminists have actively exported their philosophy to the Muslim world, the opposite of aligning with reactionary Islamists who fear their women are being wooed by Western libertinism).


Feminism's main weakness, if anything, is how nebulous and broad it has become. The sheer grab bag of concepts it has incorporated and factions it has splintered into makes it rather difficult to make generalizations about, far more difficult than the broad brush strokes most of its critics like to paint it in. It's more radical elements are offputting to those who don't subscribe to such strident ideas and rhetoric, but that tends to be true of basically every radical faction of any ideology. My suspicion is the underlying drive for the particularly furious backlash that feminism experiences has to do with the uncertainity and insecurity that has been generated by the shifting norms and expressions of masculinity.

This is kind of the point then, it's a bunch of splinter cells and while I can call out one, you can counter with "not all feminists". The argument is circular because you have TERFs, intersectionalists, egalitarians, man-haters, tumblristas, etc etc and they are fighting each other now.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/07/video-game-violence-trump-meeting-esa-nra/

https://theconversation.com/why-violence-in-video-games-isnt-really-a-problem-92165

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

This is the same for their being some "muh" sexist roleplay of women in video games. Nobody notices these things and it doesn't create a sexist culture or whatever.

I didn't see this until now, but "video games don't cause more violence"(which mostly doesn't even cite studies" doesn't magically make a bunch of studies about medias impact of our opinion of social issues invalid.
Reminder:http://ontario.cmha.ca/wp-content/files/2012/07/moods_media_200812.pdf
http://sciencenordic.com/media-influences-our-attitude-towards-wealthy
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7e0/293918f3264401227e34d441e6b04bda132d.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248933230_Media_Influence_on_Citizen_Attitudes_Toward_Police_Effectiveness

We should talk more then about how social media is really the cancer of the internet when it comes to shaping ideas, those and the stuffy ivory-tower twerps entrenched in college tenure teaching gender studies.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/07/video-game-violence-trump-meeting-esa-nra/

https://theconversation.com/why-violence-in-video-games-isnt-really-a-problem-92165

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180116131317.htm

This is the same for their being some "muh" sexist roleplay of women in video games. Nobody notices these things and it doesn't create a sexist culture or whatever.

I didn't see this until now, but "video games don't cause more violence"(which mostly doesn't even cite studies" doesn't magically make a bunch of studies about medias impact of our opinion of social issues invalid.
Reminder:http://ontario.cmha.ca/wp-content/files/2012/07/moods_media_200812.pdf
http://sciencenordic.com/media-influences-our-attitude-towards-wealthy
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7e0/293918f3264401227e34d441e6b04bda132d.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248933230_Media_Influence_on_Citizen_Attitudes_Toward_Police_Effectiveness

We should talk more then about how social media is really the cancer of the internet when it comes to shaping ideas, those and the stuffy ivory-tower twerps entrenched in college tenure teaching gender studies.

K. You're clearly out of arguments.

[nclib]

Strongly support, of course.

Freedom philosophy (sane). 

Men and women should have equal rights, and society would be better off with more women in positions of power.  Also, prescribed gender roles are stupid; men should be able to "act feminine" without facing discrimination.

Exactly. This is a positive side effect of feminism.

Rather than being focused on the solidarity and collective action which you need to have an effective social movement, modern day social justice is all about how if you're not a part of a certain group, you can't have any understanding of their struggle or have much in common with them.

Not true at all. As a man who is active in the women's movement, this is has not been the case. The NOW logo in my sig is the 'National Organization for Women" not the "National Organization of Women". Plenty of men (such as myself) are 'for women' and plenty of women are not 'for women'.

I don't have strong opinions either way about video games, but I think some here are overestimating how much feminists care about that.

I don't think looking at pornography is inherently sexist. Gay men also look at pornography. It has more to do with sexual pleasure rather than dominance.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Depends on the time period:

When there were legitimate concerns about equality: Epic FP
When it became about separation and superiority: Epic HP

As I have said, modern feminism is evil and has no place in American society.

Giving it some thoughts, revised my statement.

[Ohioguy29]

Strongly support, of course.

Freedom philosophy (sane). 

Men and women should have equal rights, and society would be better off with more women in positions of power.  Also, prescribed gender roles are stupid; men should be able to "act feminine" without facing discrimination.

Exactly. This is a positive side effect of feminism.

Rather than being focused on the solidarity and collective action which you need to have an effective social movement, modern day social justice is all about how if you're not a part of a certain group, you can't have any understanding of their struggle or have much in common with them.

Not true at all. As a man who is active in the women's movement, this is has not been the case. The NOW logo in my sig is the 'National Organization for Women" not the "National Organization of Women". Plenty of men (such as myself) are 'for women' and plenty of women are not 'for women'.

I don't have strong opinions either way about video games, but I think some here are overestimating how much feminists care about that.

I don't think looking at pornography is inherently sexist. Gay men also look at pornography. It has more to do with sexual pleasure rather than dominance.

I was part of the social justice movement for years, sounds like we've had different experiences. It could be an age thing; older activists are a different (better) breed than the young crowd. I'm not under some impression that most feminists think looking at porn is sexist; most feminists I've known were sex positive and pro-sex work.

[OSR stands with Israel]

FP, I'm for equal rights and privileges.

LOL at the GOP numbers.

That’s not what feminism is really about anymore .

Most feminists I know are really annoying SJW , whine about littlest things and are hypocrites

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Beyond a firm approval of any form of self-liberation as a matter of principle (because it is surely right that people wish to have better, freer and more fulfilling lives), I think that it isn't really my place to say. Feminism is, after all, a very, very broad and very, very diverse tendency that means different things to different women, and relates (always) to experiences that aren't mine and never could be. It is, in fact, impossible to have a truly credible opinion on many of the issues and controversies with which it is concerned without sharing the relevant experiences, because it is so concerned with the nuances and and very personal details of life.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Beyond a firm approval of any form of self-liberation as a matter of principle (because it is surely right that people wish to have better, freer and more fulfilling lives), I think that it isn't really my place to say. Feminism is, after all, a very, very broad and very, very diverse tendency that means different things to different women, and relates (always) to experiences that aren't mine and never could be. It is, in fact, impossible to have a truly credible opinion on many of the issues and controversies with which it is concerned without sharing the relevant experiences.

Very much this, yes. I'm a (cis)member of the XY club, so...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Plenty of men (such as myself) are 'for women' and plenty of women are not 'for women'.

You see, I find this problematic. Is it for a man to determine whether any given woman is  'for' or 'against' women?

[Torie]

To be honest, I am confused these days what the term means. And I feel no compelling need to dig into it. I take things issue by issue. That is just the way I prefer do thing. As I have said before, I tend to dislike grand unified theories, and sweeping terms.