Is your general societal/political outlook more optimistic or pessimistic?

[DavidB.]

Pessimistic. While objective living conditions have only improved, the state of societies in the West has been continuously declining. In our quest to eliminate both nature and God (insofar as these two are separable) we have lost the necessary balance between the rational and the irrational, between the worldly and the godly realms. We have lost the ties to our extended family members and to the places where our ancestors lived. All vertical relationships are being replaced by horizontal relationships, which makes everything fluid. The market decides and we are all just individuals whose status in society is decided by our value on this market. Of course, we are not programmed to compete in such a ratrace, which is why suicide, depression and loneliness are widespread. It is only getting worse, as most of us do not realize this; and as things progressively become worse, we increasingly lose the tools to even understand the past, let alone to return to it. We are also set to lose freedoms due to technological progress - look at China's social credit system and realize that as corporations take over our countries and our nation-states' political power is hollowed out, such systems could in time be implemented here too. Robots and cameras will be able to see how we feel, what we think of, what we desire. And we probably will find this to be very convenient, with privacy being just an afterthought.

Perhaps this is all meant to be. But it does not make me optimistic about the future.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

^Amen, Brother.

[DC Al Fine]

^Amen, Brother.

[HillGoose]

Pessimistic. While objective living conditions have only improved, the state of societies in the West has been continuously declining. In our quest to eliminate both nature and God (insofar as these two are separable) we have lost the necessary balance between the rational and the irrational, between the worldly and the godly realms. We have lost the ties to our extended family members and to the places where our ancestors lived. All vertical relationships are being replaced by horizontal relationships, which makes everything fluid. The market decides and we are all just individuals whose status in society is decided by our value on this market. Of course, we are not programmed to compete in such a ratrace, which is why suicide, depression and loneliness are widespread. It is only getting worse, as most of us do not realize this; and as things progressively become worse, we increasingly lose the tools to even understand the past, let alone to return to it. We are also set to lose freedoms due to technological progress - look at China's social credit system and realize that as corporations take over our countries and our nation-states' political power is hollowed out, such systems could in time be implemented here too. Robots and cameras will be able to see how we feel, what we think of, what we desire. And we probably will find this to be very convenient, with privacy being just an afterthought.

Perhaps this is all meant to be. But it does not make me optimistic about the future.

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

Once again, in regards to the past, was life better a couple hundred years ago when you were very likely to die before the age of 15, and if you were lucky enough to survive you had to spend your entire life working in the sweltering heat for 80+ hours a week just to scrape by at subsistence level?

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Pessimistic. While objective living conditions have only improved, the state of societies in the West has been continuously declining. In our quest to eliminate both nature and God (insofar as these two are separable) we have lost the necessary balance between the rational and the irrational, between the worldly and the godly realms. We have lost the ties to our extended family members and to the places where our ancestors lived. All vertical relationships are being replaced by horizontal relationships, which makes everything fluid. The market decides and we are all just individuals whose status in society is decided by our value on this market. Of course, we are not programmed to compete in such a ratrace, which is why suicide, depression and loneliness are widespread. It is only getting worse, as most of us do not realize this; and as things progressively become worse, we increasingly lose the tools to even understand the past, let alone to return to it. We are also set to lose freedoms due to technological progress - look at China's social credit system and realize that as corporations take over our countries and our nation-states' political power is hollowed out, such systems could in time be implemented here too. Robots and cameras will be able to see how we feel, what we think of, what we desire. And we probably will find this to be very convenient, with privacy being just an afterthought.

Perhaps this is all meant to be. But it does not make me optimistic about the future.

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

Once again, in regards to the past, was life better a couple hundred years ago when you were very likely to die before the age of 15, and if you were lucky enough to survive you had to spend your entire life working in the sweltering heat for 80+ hours a week just to scrape by at subsistence level?

But, but, but back then we had strong community bonds tm and religious values.

[DavidB.]

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

That's exactly right. Taking issue with the (state of the) modern world is exactly the same as wishing for the DPRK's model to be exported everywhere.

Once again, in regards to the past, was life better a couple hundred years ago when you were very likely to die before the age of 15, and if you were lucky enough to survive you had to spend your entire life working in the sweltering heat for 80+ hours a week just to scrape by at subsistence level?

Living conditions are better than ever, which has made life more bearable and often even comfortable, but at the same time succeeding at life by today's standards is perhaps more difficult than ever, now that our horizontal ties have been cut off: contracts are temporary, friendships (how long will they last?) replace family ties, we move around for jobs all the time and we have to re-educate ourselves in the job market all the time in order to remain employable - all dancing to the beat of the market, the machine that globalizes everything. Yet we don't see what we lose. We feel that our souls are never satisfied so we do the craziest things in our spare time: holidays to the most far-flung destinations, bungee jumping... new friends, a new job, a new place, everything is fluid.

It would be better for us to return to live lives in which work and non-work are separated, lives in which the mutual dependency of employer and employee is more lasting, lives in which we don't move around all the time, lives in which we live close to our families and build ties so that we need each other again, lives in which we pay attention to our souls' non-rational needs - both physical and spiritual, but in this society we barely even have the tools to recognize these spiritual needs. The idea that these needs are just as important as our "rational needs" (insofar as they can even be separated) is completely overlooked in the first place.

Freedom is not being alone on an uninhabited island with a big bottle of booze. We are social beings. Real freedom lies in living a fulfilling life and doing our part within a social system that enables us to provide for our needs.

The role of politics is to facilitate the shaping of society in such a way that it becomes possible to live such a free life - to recognize its limited role therein, but to intervene when necessary.

[Yellowhammer]

Things only get worse. There’s no question about us being able to reverse course; that can’t be done. My only hope is that things will gets worse at a slower pace in the future than they have been as of recent.
America is in a death spiral.

[HillGoose]

Pessimistic. While objective living conditions have only improved, the state of societies in the West has been continuously declining. In our quest to eliminate both nature and God (insofar as these two are separable) we have lost the necessary balance between the rational and the irrational, between the worldly and the godly realms. We have lost the ties to our extended family members and to the places where our ancestors lived. All vertical relationships are being replaced by horizontal relationships, which makes everything fluid. The market decides and we are all just individuals whose status in society is decided by our value on this market. Of course, we are not programmed to compete in such a ratrace, which is why suicide, depression and loneliness are widespread. It is only getting worse, as most of us do not realize this; and as things progressively become worse, we increasingly lose the tools to even understand the past, let alone to return to it. We are also set to lose freedoms due to technological progress - look at China's social credit system and realize that as corporations take over our countries and our nation-states' political power is hollowed out, such systems could in time be implemented here too. Robots and cameras will be able to see how we feel, what we think of, what we desire. And we probably will find this to be very convenient, with privacy being just an afterthought.

Perhaps this is all meant to be. But it does not make me optimistic about the future.

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

Once again, in regards to the past, was life better a couple hundred years ago when you were very likely to die before the age of 15, and if you were lucky enough to survive you had to spend your entire life working in the sweltering heat for 80+ hours a week just to scrape by at subsistence level?

But, but, but back then we had strong community bonds tm and religious values.

I agree. Talk on atlas about "Strong community bonds TM" equates to "You and your fiancee would be lynched for being together" in my mind. Back when people in my state had those "Strong Community Bonds TM" that is what would have happpened to us. Or maybe we'd get lucky and just taken to prison for getting married to a different "race."

I don't have any respect for that kind of thinking.

[Blair]

No-one on the right of the Labour Party can be anything other than a sadist at this moment.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I am optimistic that humanity will do the right thing in the end (but not for lack of repeated stabs at the wrong thing).

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I agree. Talk on atlas about "Strong community bonds TM" equates to "You and your fiancee would be lynched for being together" in my mind. Back when people in my state had those "Strong Community Bonds TM" that is what would have happpened to us. Or maybe we'd get lucky and just taken to prison for getting married to a different "race."

I don't have any respect for that kind of thinking.

Gee, if only caring about your community and going to church didn't have to be inextricably tied to racism...

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[Ohioguy29]

Pessimistic. While objective living conditions have only improved, the state of societies in the West has been continuously declining. In our quest to eliminate both nature and God (insofar as these two are separable) we have lost the necessary balance between the rational and the irrational, between the worldly and the godly realms. We have lost the ties to our extended family members and to the places where our ancestors lived. All vertical relationships are being replaced by horizontal relationships, which makes everything fluid. The market decides and we are all just individuals whose status in society is decided by our value on this market. Of course, we are not programmed to compete in such a ratrace, which is why suicide, depression and loneliness are widespread. It is only getting worse, as most of us do not realize this; and as things progressively become worse, we increasingly lose the tools to even understand the past, let alone to return to it. We are also set to lose freedoms due to technological progress - look at China's social credit system and realize that as corporations take over our countries and our nation-states' political power is hollowed out, such systems could in time be implemented here too. Robots and cameras will be able to see how we feel, what we think of, what we desire. And we probably will find this to be very convenient, with privacy being just an afterthought.

Perhaps this is all meant to be. But it does not make me optimistic about the future.

[mvd10]

Anyway, my slightly more serious take on this:

Mixed. There are a lot of problems on the horizon. A lot of people feel more disenchanted from the political system which will make government formation in many countries much harder (and that could arguably lead to more disenchantment). Meanwhile this disenchantment can lead to dangerous things. Like David said, we're incredibly reliable on the internet now. The internet has been an amazing thing, but it also makes us very vulnerable to governments abusing the internet and manipulating our most important source of information for their own goals (print papers are dying lmao). This also is very dangerous in western countries since both sides seem to be getting more snowflakey at best and authoritorian at worst. The left is obsessed by dystopian fake news and/or hate speech filters (which obviously won't stop at fake news lol) while the far-right just wants to throw anyone who doesn't follow their Dear Leader out of an airplane.

There are economic problems on the horizon. European countries have horrible population pyramids, productivity growth is near-zero and we just don't have any ideas anymore. The worst thing is that people for some reason just don't care anymore. Leftists are selling fairytales openly talking about ''degrowth'' like that while the right is becoming more and more alt-right and the alt-right doesn't give a f**k about markets, innovation and efficiency.

But we also have to remember than the western world in 2018 literally is the best place to be alive in human history. We're wealthier than ever, our standard of living is higher than ever and many groups that have been marginalized in the pasts enjoy more rights than ever. Being told by your community or government what you could or could not do based on the way you were born (gender, race, etc) sucks. For too often has community or the greater good been used as a way to f**k those who were different. Sure, there are some downsides but overall increased individualism has been one of the best things that happened to humanity. Being different in the 1950s sucked, being different in 2018 can be difficult but we don't really have things like glass ceilings anymore.

In the end we're better off in 2018 than in 2008, we were better off in 2008 than in 1998 and if we really go on and push even further, we will be better off in 2028 than in 2018.

[parochial boy]

I share David's fears but mostly think we'll eventually get it right, in some form or another. Humans do generally have an ability to recognise when things are going wrong and change things enough to make things better - just slowly.

What is enlightenning though, in this thread, is the insistance by the "neoliberals" that things are all going wonderfully and to completely dismiss anyone who thinks otherwise.

For all that the world is getting wealthier, and many people are escaping poverty, for a lot of people, especially in industrial and post-industrial socities, the changes of recent times have meant isolation, exclusion, precarity, and so on, and in many real ways their lives have got worse. To suggest that isn't the case because they have access to cheap consumer goods is insulting.

[darklordoftech]

There's a big difference between saying that 1978 was better than the present and saying that 1878 was better than the present.

[OSR stands with Israel]

There's a big difference between saying that 1978 was better than the present and saying that 1878 was better than the present.

1978 was not better than the Present


1983-2001 yes was better but that was the best era in American History


but 2014-Present is still way better than pre 1983

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

There's a big difference between saying that 1978 was better than the present and saying that 1878 was better than the present.

1978 was not better than the Present


1983-2001 yes was better but that was the best era in American History


but 2014-Present is still way better than pre 1983

Probably, but 9/11/2001 changed a lot for the worst in this country.

[HillGoose]

I agree. Talk on atlas about "Strong community bonds TM" equates to "You and your fiancee would be lynched for being together" in my mind. Back when people in my state had those "Strong Community Bonds TM" that is what would have happpened to us. Or maybe we'd get lucky and just taken to prison for getting married to a different "race."

I don't have any respect for that kind of thinking.

Gee, if only caring about your community and going to church didn't have to be inextricably tied to racism...

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You guys are the ones claiming the past was better because "strong community" and guess what was part of that community? Racism. You can't be like "Let's go back to 1950 but without all the bad stuff." That stuff was a part of the community back then.

I'm not sure you could blend modern values of legal equality with past "community" values without creating some sort of totalitarian Frankenstein government that would crush everyone's right to individual freedom. It would end up being the disturbingly scary society in Ayn Rand's "Anthem"

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I agree. Talk on atlas about "Strong community bonds TM" equates to "You and your fiancee would be lynched for being together" in my mind. Back when people in my state had those "Strong Community Bonds TM" that is what would have happpened to us. Or maybe we'd get lucky and just taken to prison for getting married to a different "race."

I don't have any respect for that kind of thinking.

Gee, if only caring about your community and going to church didn't have to be inextricably tied to racism...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You guys are the ones claiming the past was better because "strong community" and guess what was part of that community? Racism. You can't be like "Let's go back to 1950 but without all the bad stuff." That stuff was a part of the community back then.

Sarcastic answer: But we can try.

Sincere answer: See below.

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Now this actually is a question worth asking: can the social capital we've told ourselves existed at earlier points in America's history be recreated in an environment of racial, gender, and sexual equality? Or are they part and parcel? Is anomie the natural sacrifice for greater tolerance? Part of this is about ensuring the existence of socialization mechanisms in a way that many parts of America sadly lack. This is sadly a geographic issue for much of America--we are more spread out, instilling a greater reliance on technology to get around and communicate with others--and bleeds right into how we structure subdivisions. Part of this is in the public policy arena--not just zoning, but funding for community programs, national service, etc.--but part of it is incumbent on people taking voluntary action. The fact that the economic system for some people encroaches on leisure time that once existed is surely a detriment to community involvement, though I'm not sure if in today's America people would make productive use of that time. If it sounds like I'm talking in circles, it's because I acknowledge that there aren't automatic "easy answers" to things I view as problems, and that's fine. But if we want an America that best represents the values we want to push for on the world stage--democracy, capitalism, freedom--we've got to have an America that practices effective democracy, fair capitalism, and productive freedom.

Now to put it more bluntly, I think that racism, homphobia, and sexism need not be inextricably tied to social capital, community integration, and civic engagement. But would this involve a greater degree of government authority and involvement? I think yes, but not to nightmarish levels.

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No public policy answer is ever going to solve this.

[Former President tack50]

Generally optimistic, except for climate change (I'm scared for that one but still have hope).

I can't know for sure if the future will be better than the present, but I can certainly say that 2018 is probably the best year to be alive on the planet, and it seems that progress is still making it a better place.

[Orthogonian Society Treasurer]

Pessimistic in the short term. Western society is entering a period of tremendous uncertainty and chaos in which our traditional institutions will become increasingly unable to respond to unexpected developments; the British government's floundering on Brexit is the best example of this but there are many others. There will be much gnashing of teeth before we know whether Western liberal democracy will crumble or reform itself into something that can endure the 21st century.

[TPIG]

As a social conservative who laments the declining importance of God and a common morality in the lives of Americans, I hold a generally pessimistic view of the future. I believe that for a people to remain free, they must also be moral, or else society will ultimately devolve into chaos, anarchy, and immorality. The Founders of our nation understood that freedom and morality go hand-in-hand, so while I may be more optimistic about the policy direction of our nation in the near future, this larger issue outweighs that optimism.

[HillGoose]

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

That's exactly right. Taking issue with the (state of the) modern world is exactly the same as wishing for the DPRK's model to be exported everywhere.

Wasn't DPRK trying to accomplish those sorts of things that yall are pushing?

What makes you think it could be done better?

The USSR, the PRC, the DPRK, they all had these grand ideological goals of "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" and what happened there?

The USSR crumbled, the PRC reformed to survive, and North Korea is vastly recognized as the most unfree place on Earth right now.

They killed millions and millions in their quest for "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" so what makes you think it would ever be different any other way?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

That's exactly right. Taking issue with the (state of the) modern world is exactly the same as wishing for the DPRK's model to be exported everywhere.

Wasn't DPRK trying to accomplish those sorts of things that yall are pushing?

What makes you think it could be done better?

The USSR, the PRC, the DPRK, they all had these grand ideological goals of "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" and what happened there?

The USSR crumbled, the PRC reformed to survive, and North Korea is vastly recognized as the most unfree place on Earth right now.

They killed millions and millions in their quest for "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" so what makes you think it would ever be different any other way?

Yeah, volunteering at your local food bank and paid leave are literally North Korea. Not everything exists in some Reaganism prism of unrestrained vulture capitalism combined with liberal social mores on one hand and despotic totalitarianism on the other. Understanding that the world does not exist in simple binaries is something that ought to have been learned prior to the age of twenty one.

[HillGoose]

So you don't believe in the free market? North Korea doesn't have a free market and life there sucks. People die of starvation and a lack of heating.

That's exactly right. Taking issue with the (state of the) modern world is exactly the same as wishing for the DPRK's model to be exported everywhere.

Wasn't DPRK trying to accomplish those sorts of things that yall are pushing?

What makes you think it could be done better?

The USSR, the PRC, the DPRK, they all had these grand ideological goals of "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" and what happened there?

The USSR crumbled, the PRC reformed to survive, and North Korea is vastly recognized as the most unfree place on Earth right now.

They killed millions and millions in their quest for "national community" and "ending the capitalist rat race" so what makes you think it would ever be different any other way?

Yeah, volunteering at your local food bank and paid leave are literally North Korea. Not everything exists in some Reaganism prism of unrestrained vulture capitalism combined with liberal social mores on one hand and despotic totalitarianism on the other. Understanding that the world does not exist in simple binaries is something that ought to have been learned prior to the age of twenty one.

So, is Loving v. Virginia a "liberal social more" you'd be willing to repeal for "community?" Just out of curiosity. Because in the area I live in, I'd be willing to say most of these old people who long for the "community" of the "olden days" would find that not just acceptable, but desirable.

And I don't think they should be given that opportunity to take away the freedoms of others to promote "community" like that.