muon2's Diplomacy game

[NOVA Green]

S'pose I could play as Russia. Anyone tell me what I should do because I have a reasonable idea of what moves I want to make.

I'll PM you a few strategy guides from the dude who created the game back in '54, that got published by Avalon Hill in '59 as a board game, then Avalon Hill becomes essentially the "Gold Standard" of Military Board Games by the time the '70s/'80s rolled around.

THANK YOU for stepping up the plate!!!!

Honestly Russia, likely isn't that hard to play as a "Newbie", mainly because most of your major "supply centers" are located further from potential hostile powers.

Next thing that is going to happen since you volunteered to represent Russia, is you will likely be bombarded from the other six players in the Game trying to negotiate with you (Myself Included), suggest strategic alliances, attempting moral suasion, potentially planning to backstab you, provide military advice, etc....

I suspect that most of us will go easy with you on your first turn, but point is you will need to sift the thistle through the sieve and attempt to discern who is a real potential friend, ally, hostile... you will need to discern their short, medium, and long-term political interests, tactical aspects of the game.

Bottom line on your first turn, will likely be to talk to every single player in the game, protect your supply centers, eyeball expansion opportunities, but not look at it like a "short term move"....

Every player in the Game will see a major betrayal against an Ally as a character flaw...

First moves in the game would likely be considered "safe moves"....

You currently have a strategic advantage in the game in the sense, that nobody has any idea of your playing style nor strategy based upon prior moves.

You will definitely want to review the official rules that Muon2 posted prior to sending ANY of your moves before the deadline FRIDAY 12 PM CST (?).

Since Muon2 is the official GM, I would suggest sending any requests to him regarding interpretations of the rules to him directly via PM when it comes to how to post Military Movements etc....

[muon2]

S'pose I could play as Russia. Anyone tell me what I should do because I have a reasonable idea of what moves I want to make.

Thanks and welcome to the game. I linked some basic resources about game play in the OP. Please feel free to pm me if you have specific questions. Your next move is due to me by pm before 11:59 pm CDT tomorrow.

[OBD]

S'pose I could play as Russia. Anyone tell me what I should do because I have a reasonable idea of what moves I want to make.

I'll PM you a few strategy guides from the dude who created the game back in '54, that got published by Avalon Hill in '59 as a board game, then Avalon Hill becomes essentially the "Gold Standard" of Military Board Games by the time the '70s/'80s rolled around.

THANK YOU for stepping up the plate!!!!

Honestly Russia, likely isn't that hard to play as a "Newbie", mainly because most of your major "supply centers" are located further from potential hostile powers.

Next thing that is going to happen since you volunteered to represent Russia, is you will likely be bombarded from the other six players in the Game trying to negotiate with you (Myself Included), suggest strategic alliances, attempting moral suasion, potentially planning to backstab you, provide military advice, etc....

I suspect that most of us will go easy with you on your first turn, but point is you will need to sift the thistle through the sieve and attempt to discern who is a real potential friend, ally, hostile... you will need to discern their short, medium, and long-term political interests, tactical aspects of the game.

Bottom line on your first turn, will likely be to talk to every single player in the game, protect your supply centers, eyeball expansion opportunities, but not look at it like a "short term move"....

Every player in the Game will see a major betrayal against an Ally as a character flaw...

First moves in the game would likely be considered "safe moves"....

You currently have a strategic advantage in the game in the sense, that nobody has any idea of your playing style nor strategy based upon prior moves.

You will definitely want to review the official rules that Muon2 posted prior to sending ANY of your moves before the deadline FRIDAY 12 PM CST (?).

Since Muon2 is the official GM, I would suggest sending any requests to him regarding interpretations of the rules to him directly via PM when it comes to how to post Military Movements etc....

No problem!

Though I've only played one game before so I kind of don't have a strategy lmao

[NOVA Green]

I'm fine with pausing the game until a permanent Russia is found.

If others prefer a biweekly move schedule I'm OK with it, although the weekly schedule isn't a problem for me.  I suggest putting retreats and adjustments on a shorter schedule, though.  Even a week seems like a lot for those; two weeks is overkill.

So it sounds like there isn't any opposition posted publicly regarding continuing the original game rules as posted of continuing to play on a Weekly Basis.

Next question, would obviously be, how we would collectively handle a situation where a player:

1.) Does not post any movements by the required deadline.

2.) How do we adjust for an event where players either "abandon" their duties (Not posting their resignation from the Game on this thread), or in the event that players need to "quit" the game for personal reasons?

At this point do we start looking at moving to a larger extension of movement to replace existing players?

So if a player does not submit any movements by the deadline, are they effectively considered "on probation" as having abandoned their responsibilities, etc?

How should we handle such a situation collectively....

Thoughts???

[muon2]

Fall 1901

Austria: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.
        F alb - gre
        A ser Supports A bul - rum
        A tyr - tri
     
England: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.
        A edi - hol
             Convoy path taken: edi -> nth -> hol.
        F nth Convoys A edi - hol
        F nwg - nwy
     
France: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 3.
        A bur - bel
        A mar - spa
        F mao - por

Germany: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.
        F bal Convoys A ber - den
        A ber - den
            Convoy path taken: ber -> bal -> den.
        A sil - war
            Bounced with ukr (1 against 1).
       
Italy: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.
        A tus Supports A ven
        F tys - tun
        A ven Holds

Russia: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.
        A gal - vie
        F bot - swe
        F sev - rum
            Bounced with bul (1 against 2).
        A ukr - war
            Bounced with sil (1 against 1).

Turkey: Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.
        F ank - bla
        A bul - rum
        A con - bul



There are no retreats needed so the position before builds is as follows



Builds available are listed in the orders for each Power, and units may only be built on unoccupied home supply centers. Submit builds before Sun 10/21 11:59 pm CDT. Once all builds are received I will post an updated winter 1901 map.
 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Austria
We have our first open alliance, with Austria helping the Ottomans in splitting the Balkans. This basically commits them both against Russia as otherwise the alliance falls apart. Austria would've done better to not gone into Tyrol in Spring if they weren't going to commit to invading Munich. They have no choice but to build an Army in Budapest.

England
So who will England ally with? That should become clear in the coming year as any of France, Germany, Russia, or two of the three makes sense. Regardless, A fleet in London to be moved into the channel makes sense. Where and what the second unit to be built depends on what alliance(s) England has made. A build in Liverpool would likely indicate that England and France are going to come to blows.

France
Hard to say who France is allied to. Whether they build a fleet or an army in Marseilles should make clear if France intends to fight or ally with Italy. A fleet in Brest and an army in Paris make sense regardless of France's plans.

Germany
So? France or England? Either way, an army in Kiel is probably the best build.

Italy
A fleet build in Naples is probably Italy's best bet right now. A build in Rome only makes sense if they are allied with Austria and the Ottomans, and Austria's moves suggest that isn't the case.

Russia
The Czar can't hold Sweden without an alliance with either England, Germany, or both. Germany's moves suggest it's not them, so I'm going to assume an alliance with England. Builds of armies in Warsaw and elsewhere make sense.

Turkey
The Porte should build an army in Ankara and a fleet in Istanbul. That's good for both defense and practically guaranteeing taking Sevastopol. Russia would need to commit way too much to hold Sevastopol in my opinion.

[muon2]

My apologies for the delay. There was a snafu on builds that I needed to sort out. The Spring 1902 Move is still due Fri 11:59 pm CDT. Note that if any unit is forced to retreat from the Spring 1902 moves I will notify the player and expect a prompt response so that we can go smoothly into Fall 1902.

Winter 1901   
        Austria: Builds A bud
        England: Builds A edi, F lon
        France: Builds F bre, A mar, A par     
        Germany: Builds A kie
        Italy: Builds F nap
        Russia: Builds A mos, A war
        Turkey: Builds A con, A smy


   
 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'll restrain my comments to pointing out that I think that Turkey made a big mistake in building two armies. A fleet in Istanbul would've been just as useful in defense and far more useful for offense against either Austria or Italy as alliances would call for.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Sorry everyone, but I gotta drop out.  I've just not had time for this lately

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Sorry everyone, but I gotta drop out.  I've just not had time for this lately

#RIP

[NOVA Green]

Sorry everyone, but I gotta drop out.  I've just not had time for this lately

#RIP

Now we have to recruit a new player....

Bummer, but get your Education takes first priority.

NoVA GREEN

[muon2]

Since it is already Wed evening, I'll offer a delay if all players want it to get a replacement for England. If all six vote in favor by the time moves are due, I'll institute a one week delay. If at least one player does not vote or vetoes the delay moves will continue as scheduled.

If a new England is found before a delay is called, moves will continue as scheduled.

In any case, everyone should submit moves on time since there is no guarantee of a delay. If there is a delay moves can be changed.

[OBD]

Since it is already Wed evening, I'll offer a delay if all players want it to get a replacement for England. If all six vote in favor by the time moves are due, I'll institute a one week delay. If at least one player does not vote or vetoes the delay moves will continue as scheduled.

If a new England is found before a delay is called, moves will continue as scheduled.

In any case, everyone should submit moves on time since there is no guarantee of a delay. If there is a delay moves can be changed.

I'll vote in favor, but honestly I don't care too much.

[GeorgiaModerate]

I'm fine with the delay if there's no replacement before then.  It's better to have 7 active players.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm willing to be a temporary England until a more permanent replacement is found.

[muon2]

I'm willing to be a temporary England until a more permanent replacement is found.

Since this is in without six votes for a delay. Ernest will play England for the time being. Moves remain due tomorrow night at 11:59 CDT.

[NOVA Green]

Awesome!!!

Would have voted for the 2 Week delay if needed, but glad to see we have a "Pinch Hitter" jumping in, since although I was able to recruit a player to represent Russia after the last drop-off (Thanks DEMS for KNUTE BUEHLER     ), it's most properly played as a 7 Power Game, until eventually Nations get gradually eliminated....

Let it roll....

[muon2]

I'm still up and the orders are all in ...

Spring 1902

Austria:
        A bud Supports A tri -> vie
        F gre -> alb
        A ser Holds
        A tri -> vie
     
England:
        No order for unit at London. Hold order assigned.
        F eng -> eng
            No unit in eng
        A edi -> yor
        A hol Supports A bel -> ruh
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F lon Holds
        F nth Supports F lon -> eng
            Support failed. Supported unit's order does not match support given.
        F nwy Supports F swe
     
France:
        A bel Holds
        F bre -> eng
        A mar -> bur
        A par -> pic
        F por Holds
        A spa -> mar

Germany:
        F bal Supports A den -> swe
        A den -> swe
            Bounced with swe (2 against 2).
        A kie Holds
        A sil Holds
     
Italy:
        F nap -> tys
        F tun -> wes
        A tus Supports A ven
        A ven Holds

Russia:
        A mos Supports F sev
        F sev Holds
        F swe Supports F nwy
            Support cut by Move from Denmark.
        A ukr Supports F sev
        A vie -> boh
        A war -> sil
            Bounced with sil (1 against 1).
       
Turkey:
        F bla Supports A smy -> arm
        A bul Supports A rum
        A con Supports A bul
        A rum Holds
        A smy -> arm
     


No retreats are needed. This is the position going into Fall 1902. I've added the place names with proper abbreviations so that there should be no confusion.



Fall 1902 moves are due by 11:59 pm CDT on Fri Nov 2.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I've been reminded why I don't play Diplomacy much. Granted, I made a mistake in writing my orders, but it was absolutely clear what I meant. Bye.

[muon2]

I'm sorry to lose England again. In Spring 1901 Germany submitted an illegal move and Ber had to hold. Same thing with England this turn. It's not normal play, but I can notify the player of any illegal moves so that the moves can be amended. Is that what players want?

[GeorgiaModerate]

I'm sorry to lose England again. In Spring 1901 Germany submitted an illegal move and Ber had to hold. Same thing with England this turn. It's not normal play, but I can notify the player of any illegal moves so that the moves can be amended. Is that what players want?

I support that.  It's the same thing the email Diplomacy judges do if a player submits an invalid order.

[muon2]

I'm sorry to lose England again. In Spring 1901 Germany submitted an illegal move and Ber had to hold. Same thing with England this turn. It's not normal play, but I can notify the player of any illegal moves so that the moves can be amended. Is that what players want?

I support that.  It's the same thing the email Diplomacy judges do if a player submits an invalid order.

I did not know that. In other online and face to face games I've played, illegal moves are covered by the rules as orders to hold.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Note that the rules cover illegal orders differently than poorly written moves that are unambiguous, which are interpreted in favor of the player. For example England wrote "F Nor supports F Swe holding", and Nor isn't technically the abbreviation of any province (it could be Norway, North Sea or North Atlantic Ocean). Since there was only one of those three (nwy) that could support swe, it was interpreted that way.

As with other suggestions, if all other players want a house rule change to notify players of an illegal order submitted, we can do that.

[TJ in Oregon]

I'm fine with notifying players if they submit an illegal order.

[NOVA Green]

I'm sorry to lose England again. In Spring 1901 Germany submitted an illegal move and Ber had to hold. Same thing with England this turn. It's not normal play, but I can notify the player of any illegal moves so that the moves can be amended. Is that what players want?

I support that.  It's the same thing the email Diplomacy judges do if a player submits an invalid order.

I did not know that. In other online and face to face games I've played, illegal moves are covered by the rules as orders to hold.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Note that the rules cover illegal orders differently than poorly written moves that are unambiguous, which are interpreted in favor of the player. For example England wrote "F Nor supports F Swe holding", and Nor isn't technically the abbreviation of any province (it could be Norway, North Sea or North Atlantic Ocean). Since there was only one of those three (nwy) that could support swe, it was interpreted that way.

As with other suggestions, if all other players want a house rule change to notify players of an illegal order submitted, we can do that.

I'm actually sympathetic and in agreement with Muon2 on this:

1.) As an individual who started playing D&D 2nd Edition almost 30 Years ago in live sessions, the DM/GM sets down the rules, and players are expected to abide by the rules.

2.) It is not the responsibility of the DM/GM to micro-manage individual players, when it comes to their individual decisions....

Any questions? DM/GM should respond in a private manner regarding any interpretation of the rules.

3.) Muon2 has invested a significant amount of his free time to host the game, and honestly should he be responsible to check up on every player's moves that are illegal and get clarification, especially within fixed timelines for players to submit moves?

4.) The GM did clearly state the Rules at the very beginning of the thread, which I have conscientiously reviewed to ensure my actions are compliant with Game Rules, so in theory it should be on the player to review and ask questions to the GM prior to posting any Movements or Actions (As I have done).

5.) In Diplomacy Tournament Games, there are situations where players will deliberately write illegal orders to confuse their opponents.... honestly I suspected that Germany might have done that on the first turn of this game (Although that is obviously not the case based upon what I know now).

6.) Fundamentally, I guess the individual players should ask do they want a "slop diplomacy" like a "slop pool" game, and create a constant GM intervention to divine the intentions of individual players regarding any moves that might appear illogical, or do we want a game where players are more engaged, spend a bit more time looking at the rules of Diplomacy 5.0, and react accordingly, and accept the individual consequences of poor choices and lack of attention to fundamental details of the game.

7.) Germany took their hits from their mistakes of '01.... We had a stand in for England providing "strategic advice" who made mistakes regarding fundamentals of the game.

Meanwhile we have a Newbie to the Game Knute Buehler from Oregon, who is taking this all in stride as a reluctant player who thought the Game was too difficult, who took over Russia under difficult circumstances.

8.) I'll go along with whatever the rest of y'all want to do, since I would much rather actually have a chance to play Diplomacy again after a few Decades, but my fundamental question would be:

To what extent should Muon2 babysit us, when the rules are clearly posted, and we can all collectively consume  "Wine, Cheese, and Smoke", and just move forward....

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Just to be clear, I do not consider myself a Diplomacy expert. I don't regularly play and if I ever read any strategy guide I long ago forgot what it said. There are things to be said in favor of both a strict and a relaxed game, but given my level of interest it's clear where I stand. It's also why I made clear from the start my intention to only be a temporary , and why I took the soonest opportunity to engage in an excuse to depart.