muon2's Diplomacy game
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Author Topic: muon2's Diplomacy game  (Read 14428 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2019, 07:50:01 PM »

Both France and Germany made tactical blunders earlier in this game, so I wouldn't assume everything's going to go by the optimum Diplomacy book. It probably is the case that they should be able to keep you from winning by yourself, but I don't consider that a guarantee just yet.  I'd at least wait and see what the builds are before accepting a draw.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2019, 08:42:20 PM »

At this point, it's fairly clear that the Turks have won, the only question is if a Franco-German alliance can force the Porte to accept a draw.

The Germans have no ability to threaten Sevastapol and their prospects of advancing into the former Austrian territories look bleak.  The Porte might be able to take Moscow in 1908, but likely only if the Reich fails to reinforce Moscow because it gets too involved in the West.

The French also have a lack of ability to act against the Turks right now. It's doubtful that the Republic of France can hold on to Venice once the Turks get a fleet into the Adriatic with the only question being does that happen in 1907 or 1908? Too much effort in Britain, or even worse, fighting with Germany, makes reinforcing the Republic's forces in the western Mediterranean in time impossible, but Britain has supply centers a Franco-German alliance will need to be able to halt the Porte.

The biggest weakness a Franco-German alliance has are those two German navies. If they're needed in the Baltic for defense, the Porte will have taken at least Moscow. If the French were to build a second northern fleet that could then grind the German fleet to pieces to be replaced by armies before heading south themselves to the Mediterranean, that too would actually make the situation worse in the short term by tying up so much force away from the Turkish fronts, that they might win outright before the freed up resources could get south.

Oddly enough, what a Franco-German alliance needs most is either an active British or an active Austrian player, at least in the short run.  A British player could grind away the German fleets so they could be rebuilt as armies without tying up French navies and make it possible for the one French army already landed to take Britain without further reinforcements, tho it wouldn't be able to finish until Fall 1909. (Obviously France would need to let Germany get back Munich at minimum.)  An active Austrian player cooperating with the French would be able to hold Tunis and support French navies in the water. (In the turn just past, an Austria cooperating with the French would have been able to get a French fleet into WES and still seen the elimination of the Italians.)

Well, no.  One of the most important skills in Diplomacy is the ability to count to 18.  Unless F&G are completely brain-dead (which they have demonstrated not to be the case), the absolute max that Turkey can take in this position is Turkey (3) + Austria (3) + Balkans (4) + Italy (3) + Tunis (1) + Russia except StP (3) for a total of 17.   The 18th center just isn't there; France can block me from further gains in the Med, Stp can't be taken by land from the south as long as it has minimal support, and FG can easily defend the German centers.  The game will be an FGT draw, and I'll be happy to call it a day as soon as Austria is eliminated.  Or if Austria is now considered in CD, let's call it now and think about starting a new game with 7 active players this time. 

Muon2: Can we call a vote for an FGT draw now?  If so, I propose it and vote yes.

The first I heard Austria was in Civil Disorder was this Morning (Presumably because they didn't post military movements last turn???)

Still, the Austrian Player is interested in playing future games, and my assumption is that they didn't post military movements solely because a HOLD would be a HOLD regardless, and they likely didn't get my PM until shortly before movements were posted that I would be supporting their Fleet in Tunisia against the anticipated Italian / Turkish combined military movements....

Arguably GM's "absolute Max" scenario is factually correct, and with Germany and France both picking up an additional Supply Center from England by Fall '07 AND the concentration of Military Land Forces within Central Europe, make it extremely likely that not only will not achieve the maximum of 18/34, but additionally might well potentially lose in a protracted ground war....

I Second GM's motion, and if Germany agrees and if Austria's Agreement is required as well, I look forward to a New Game, a reshuffling of the Deck, since by my Count we have 5/7 current players (Including Italy) in Agreement to play a new game, and hopefully we can recruit at least one or two more reliable players, or start with (5) or (6) Player Diplomacy Rules in the event we can't get the full (7)....

NOVA
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« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2019, 09:52:03 PM »

Third. I think we can bring peace to Europe.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2019, 10:26:50 PM »
« Edited: January 13, 2019, 02:32:20 AM by NOVA Green »

Both France and Germany made tactical blunders earlier in this game, so I wouldn't assume everything's going to go by the optimum Diplomacy book. It probably is the case that they should be able to keep you from winning by yourself, but I don't consider that a guarantee just yet.  I'd at least wait and see what the builds are before accepting a draw.

True both France and Germany made blunders early in the Game based upon being a bit rusty with a few rule items....

Also, I believe that a Caretaker Government in England made a massive tactical and strategic blunder during the Spring of '02, where they attempted to make Military Movements against France and Germany at a time where there was a secret French-English Alliance to conquer Germany.

Shush.... top secret intelligence cables leaked now that the war is virtually over.... Wink

The fog of war and the unknowns, caused France to shift forces towards England at a time where Italy was starting to shift forces towards the Western MED, eyeballing the Iberian Peninsula and Marseilles....

France made aggressive movements towards Germany after England dropped out, and Turkey back-stabbed Austria-Hungary shortly after.

Still, France, Germany, and Turkey are all experienced players, so I would not anticipate any balls getting dropped again, as occurred early in the Game, and France and Germany might well prevail in a United Front against Turkey based upon what are likely the final map results.....

Again, True Federalist there will be a new Diplomacy Game shortly, and since it is obviously it is something totally up your ally, and you are likely to be a reliable player once you commit, I ask will you join us in a new game of Diplomacy?

If not, at least potentially offer to be a "pinch hitter" in the event that a player drops out unexpectedly for personal reasons for a few turns, so we can cover the game even if we start it using (5) or (6) player Diplomacy 5.0 rules....

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muon2
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« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2019, 10:28:53 PM »

Based on the acceptance by France and Germany of Turkey's offer of a draw I declare the game a mutual draw between those three. Austria has submitted no moves for the last two seasons and is in civil disorder and like England does not figure into the draw.

I am open to judging another game if there are at least 7 interested players (I don't want to start with less than a full game). If there are more than 7, then players would be selected by lot with extra players given first right to take over an abandoned power.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2019, 11:34:25 PM »

The caretaker government did make a tactical error, but I viewed my role as leaving options open for whoever took over so I wouldn't say it was a strategic error.  Even with my error, Britain was still in a playable position.  As for playing, I like kibitzing as it doesn't require a fixed commitment, and I'll have plenty on my plate in Spring 2019. I might be available for a caretaker role, but not for a full player.
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muon2
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« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2019, 04:37:38 PM »

Looking ahead to a potential next game, one question is the degree to which written orders are strictly followed according the rules. This is what the 5th Ed rules state.

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As we saw a couple of times, players, especially if new or rusty, write "illegal" orders. Once a game starts I don't like changing the rules, but I can start with house rules within reason. For example, I could pre-judge any orders submitted sufficiently in advance of the deadline (3 or 6 hours?) and ask the player to review and revise any illegal orders as necessary. Perhaps that would make it easier for new players to begin.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2019, 11:19:13 PM »

Looking ahead to a potential next game, one question is the degree to which written orders are strictly followed according the rules. This is what the 5th Ed rules state.

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As we saw a couple of times, players, especially if new or rusty, write "illegal" orders. Once a game starts I don't like changing the rules, but I can start with house rules within reason. For example, I could pre-judge any orders submitted sufficiently in advance of the deadline (3 or 6 hours?) and ask the player to review and revise any illegal orders as necessary. Perhaps that would make it easier for new players to begin.

Although certainly I can't speak for others, where it looks like we have 5/7 committed players for a future game, where all military movements were posted 100% on time (There might have been an exception for an Italian Military Build Order), I think this might well help newer and rusty players navigate the rule book without being worried that if "I don't post my orders exactly in Diplomacy 5.0 rules it might be considered invalid"....

The most important thing in an Atlas Diplomacy game is emphasizing commitment to play out the game and post orders on a regular basis....

I suspect that many of the 5/7 committed players would prefer that style of approach to reduce the intimidation that some players might feel jumping into a new game with what might be perceived as complex rules....

Another item to consider might be running a Six Player Diplomacy game using 5.0 rules, so if we don't have enough recruits, at least we can get a kick-off going while we have Five players that have already said they want a new game....

Thoughts from the rest of the Diplomacy Crew???
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #133 on: January 17, 2019, 06:39:14 AM »

My thoughts:

I really want to start with 7 players or not at all.

If Muon2 is willing to precheck the orders for validity, that's very helpful. 
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2019, 10:18:40 PM »

My thoughts:

I really want to start with 7 players or not at all.

If Muon2 is willing to precheck the orders for validity, that's very helpful. 

So, the initial survey indicates that we have Five active and consistent players that want to reshuffle the deck of cards and start a new game, a Game Master willing to host...

Georgia Moderate would prefer to start with 7 players or not at all.... (Which I would certainly like to start with Seven Players, but not required on my part if we have consistent players and start the game with default "short-handed" Diplomacy rules.)

Now, key question is how to market, recruit, and Vet new or rusty players to the Game?

My thoughts are:

1.)  That we need to start with a new Game Invite thread (Since many potential players in the Atlas "Gaming Thread" probably don't even click anymore on this existing link, since they consider it the coverage of an ongoing and existing game.

2.) In the Introduction to the game as part of the marketing strategy basically briefly describe the game (and why it is so cool and history of Diplomacy etc...), provide links to the official rules (and GM proposed modifications to help recruit new players, etc...).

3.) In the Diplomacy 5.0 rules Muon2 posted as part of the game, there is an item that refers to the classic board-game involving giving new players a "dry run" of one movement turn to familiarize themselves with some of the Movement Orders, etc....

It might be interesting to incorporate this into part of the vetting process for new players....

4.) Recruitment--- honestly this is not my area of expertise, since I believe the only gaming thread I ever previously posted on was the President Forever thread....

Some of y'all that have more experience with posters in the History, Gaming, European Politics sections of the Forum might have better luck than myself....

5.) Thoughts about how to recruit an additional few players so we can have a full board, and hopefully minimizing drop-outs....

6.) Really looking forward to a new game and hopefully am not regretting going for a complete conquest option against Turkey.   Wink

NOVA GREEN

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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #135 on: January 19, 2019, 08:25:43 AM »


6.) Really looking forward to a new game and hopefully am not regretting going for a complete conquest option against Turkey.   Wink


Don't regret it.  It almost certainly wasn't going anywhere.   

a) It's almost impossible to dig a strong Turkey (or Austria if they've eliminated Turkey) out of the southeastern corner.  In fact, I believe there's an impregnable 10- or 11-center position in the southeast in which I could have circled the wagons, although I'd have to search for the details; it's been a long time.

b) Even if (a) is wrong, FG would obviously have to work together closely to have any chance at knocking out Turkey from that point.  But it's really unlikely there would be a stable 17-17 draw position between you two, so I don't see you having a stable alliance that lasted long enough.  In particular:

c) I was careful to point out to Cath that he was a LOT more vulnerable to a stab from you, than you were from him.

d) In the unlikely event that you guys succeeded in pressing the issue and started whittling me down, I would have started throwing centers to one of you to force the other to back off.  Probably to Germany, since I figured you were the main instigator. Wink But it would depend on the circumstances at the time.
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« Reply #136 on: January 19, 2019, 09:31:30 AM »

I’d like to thank the courageous leadership of Russia and Great Britain. They walked so I could run.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #137 on: January 25, 2019, 02:50:29 AM »

So is someone going to post a new thread for a new game with new recruits based upon the "Muon2" flex advisement Diplomacy 5.0 rules where a player has a window to modify illegal movements within the time-frame provided, or do I need to post it myself?

If we don't move forward with a proposal for a new Game now, most likely existing players will lose interest, get caught up in life events, etc....

Should I post the proposal for a new game on a new thread, or does one of the rest of y'all want to perform the honors???
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2019, 07:16:22 PM »

Bump....

Any interest in a new Diplomacy game?

Only reason not starting this as a new thread is so that those who are not familiar with an online version of the game, have a chance to see what the rules are, and how some of the diplomatic negotiations and role playing structure works....

If enough folks are interested we may be lucky enough to draft Muon2 to be a GM for a new game.... Wink
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leonardothered
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« Reply #139 on: June 23, 2019, 08:05:05 PM »

I'd be interested though I'd need some examples to look over for rules and such. I've only played the board game twice
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« Reply #140 on: June 23, 2019, 08:07:23 PM »

I'd be interested though I'd need some examples to look over for rules and such. I've only played the board game twice
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #141 on: June 23, 2019, 09:22:39 PM »

I'll play again provided we have seven committed players.
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muon2
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« Reply #142 on: June 23, 2019, 09:50:34 PM »

GeorgiaModerate is right, you really need 7 committed players for the first few turns or the game becomes unbalanced. I would note that for this thread there were initially 10 players who professed interest but only 7 available to start the game and then some early drop outs. It helps to have a couple of spare players who didn't get in, but can take over when a player gets to busy IRL and has to abandon the position.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2019, 09:55:17 PM »

GeorgiaModerate is right, you really need 7 committed players for the first few turns or the game becomes unbalanced. I would note that for this thread there were initially 10 players who professed interest but only 7 available to start the game and then some early drop outs. It helps to have a couple of spare players who didn't get in, but can take over when a player gets to busy IRL and has to abandon the position.

Sent some PMs to recruit players, but totally agree with GM that 7/7 is the way to start, plus a few reserve players on the wings.... Wink
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YPestis25
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« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2019, 10:26:01 PM »

Count me in for round 2!
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #145 on: June 24, 2019, 12:28:46 AM »

TJ from Oregon just PM'd me and looks like are up to 6/7 interested players!

He's hoping he doesn't end up with one of the most difficult Empires (Austria-Hungary) to play like did last time around, but sounds down for the cause!
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« Reply #146 on: June 24, 2019, 01:08:59 AM »

I'd be interested in being an alternate player
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Gustaf
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« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2019, 06:36:25 AM »

I'd be down.
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« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2019, 06:58:40 AM »

Hoping I can get in on the first round. Had to reply late to NOVA's invite since was at work.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #149 on: June 25, 2019, 06:59:50 PM »

No go for me.  I've got a couple of vacations lined up in the next couple of months so I don't want to commit to being online in the slightest this summer.
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