Why was Prop 187 considered racist and xenophobic

[OSR stands with Israel]

Can we please stop saying “illegals”?

What would you prefer?

Undocumented immigrants. Or at least illegal immigrants if you can't do that much.

Why are you okay with illegal immigrants but not illegals?

Because the first implies “people who immigrated illegally”, while the second implies “people who are illegal”, and people aren’t illegal.

They are if they’re here illegally.

No, they’re not. By that standard, anyone (including you) who has committed any crime or any municipal violation is an “illegal”.

Ok I used the phrase illegal immigrant not illegal so

[Vespucci]

Can we please stop saying “illegals”?

What would you prefer?

Undocumented immigrants. Or at least illegal immigrants if you can't do that much.

Why are you okay with illegal immigrants but not illegals?

Because the first implies “people who immigrated illegally”, while the second implies “people who are illegal”, and people aren’t illegal.

They are if they’re here illegally.

No, they’re not. By that standard, anyone (including you) who has committed any crime or any municipal violation is an “illegal”.

Ok I used the phrase illegal immigrant not illegal so

I was talking to Alabama Indy, not you.

[DINGO Joe]

Just a reminder of how things really work in the Midwest

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california/

And who can forget that the employer of the illegal immigrant who killed Mollie Tibbetts was a prominent Republican candidate for ag commissioner in the state of Iowa who initially claimed that they used everify but didn't.  Said he was a great hardworking employee for 4 years (and he probably was).

So, he's not locked up.  The Nunes family isn't locked up.

Of course, it's not just the midwest but anywhere there's agriculture.  It's a ridiculous kabuki dance
 

[Del Tachi]

Many people see illegal immigration and Mexican as being conterminous. Pete Wilson ran ads showing Mexican people running across highways even though not all undocumented immigrants are Mexican. It was a political proposition to get him re-elected and even almost pulled Michael Huffington over the line for Senate. California still had a lot of racist elements at the time (particularly Southern California) and the rhetoric for Proposition 187 was either low key or outright racist.

It still does.

[DrScholl]

Many people see illegal immigration and Mexican as being conterminous. Pete Wilson ran ads showing Mexican people running across highways even though not all undocumented immigrants are Mexican. It was a political proposition to get him re-elected and even almost pulled Michael Huffington over the line for Senate. California still had a lot of racist elements at the time (particularly Southern California) and the rhetoric for Proposition 187 was either low key or outright racist.

It still does.

Of course it does. Lots of the rural areas and some of isolated suburbs have racist incidents.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Looking at the map of that prop Im pretty surprised LA County voted for it as well.

[dead0man]

They come here to do the work that feeds your fat ass (people in general, not you specifically).  Yet you would deprive them (many being children who need education) of basic services because the rule of law.

Let’s start severely punishing these Republican voters relying on undocumented labor, then.  Confiscate their farms, imprison anyone with an ownership interest in these farms, and auction the farms off to people willing to obey the law.

Indeed.  We need to punish the people that hire the illegals more than we do the poor bastards just looking for a job and a better life for his kids.  If it makes our fresh fruit and veggies 40% more expensive to pay what it actually should cost to get an American to pick vegetables for a living, so be it.  Or, ya know, crazy idea here, if there are Mexicans (or whatever) willing to do the work we aren't willing to do, import them (and maybe make sure the healthy Americans that turned down the jobs aren't getting any benefits from the state).

Fresh fruit and veggies?  It will make every category of ag more expensive.  Why does Dakota county in Nebraska almost have a Hispanic majority now?  Why are there so many Hispanics in Eastern NC amid all the chicken and hog farms?

Just a quick note regarding Nebraska, it recently passed WV in population but both states still have about the same number of people 16 and over.  The total number of people working in WV is around 740,000 while in Nebraska it's 986,000.  

https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.wv.htm

I guess instead of Hispanics, we could load up trains full of West Virginians to do the work.  Not sure which you'd prefer.

I have no idea what point you think I was trying to make so none of this makes any sense to me.  I was talking about fruits and veggies because that's the stereotype of what they grow in California and I was trying to be understood in a thread about California.  Of course it will make all forms of ag more expensive.  And house keeping, and construction and probably many more.  I don't care.  If we need to bring in more workers, that's great, (and we're clearly doing something right if we do) so we should, legally.  I have no idea what you're doing comparing NE to WV.  Yes, if people in WV want a job, there are plenty of places that need able bodies, NE is one of them.  I don't feel sorry for them, especially the young and able bodied.  GTFO idiots.  It's what young people form places with no jobs have always done.  They ain't special just because they were born in 1996 instead of any other point in time.

[DrScholl]

Looking at the map of that prop Im pretty surprised LA County voted for it as well.

At that time the county was more conservative outside of the city of Los Angeles (minus the San Fernando Valley). It was similar Harris County, Texas is right now.

[DINGO Joe]

To dead0man:

My point is that it's not about California, it's countrywide, or at least anyplace with agriculture. Agriculture needs workers and there isn't a local populace to fill the need.   It's nice that you're willing to pay much more for everything, I think it's debatable whether a majority would.  It would also be interesting to see how that would all work.  It would also be interesting too if they started locking up all the employers of illegal immigrants.  I would imagine the food chain would be radically disrupted and places like Iowa and Nebraska would probably have to double or triple their prison capacity. 

So, you have a huge mass of illegal immigrants working in the ag centers of America while the employers pretend they don't employ them.  The OP think some simple e-verify program will solve all this (the OP also believes Republicans were once fiscal conservatives)

Basically, you have a huge mass of illegal aliens that need to be legitimized and given US demographics you're going to need tons more labor coming in each year, especially if you want to keep this whole high debt ponzi scheme going.  Making them legal also makes them eligible to vote which makes some racist hicks angry.

And no, your not going to get the WV to go anywhere, they're perfectly willing to die off in place while yelling about how coal keeps the lights on.  If any coal is mined in WV 20 years from now, you'll probably need to bring in Hispanics to do that too.

[Jeffster]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

[DINGO Joe]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

At least were I live, my avocados say they're  from Mexico.  Everything you put in your mouth would cost more.  Illegals immigrant labor dominate the pork, beef, chicken and dairy industry.  The tiny brained racist hicks don't seem to grasp that.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Looking at the map of that prop Im pretty surprised LA County voted for it as well.

At that time the county was more conservative outside of the city of Los Angeles (minus the San Fernando Valley). It was similar Harris County, Texas is right now.

I thought LA county had become Democratic by then as


HW lost LA County in 1988 by 5 points

[darklordoftech]

Were "illegal" children going to be exempted from compulsory education laws?

[Jeffster]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

At least were I live, my avocados say they're  from Mexico.  Everything you put in your mouth would cost more.  Illegals immigrant labor dominate the pork, beef, chicken and dairy industry.  The tiny brained racist hicks don't seem to grasp that.

Yup, just keep on exploiting those poor folks you hypocrite. I know you think those brown people are only good for picking your crops and doing all the dirty work you're apparently too good for. I'll bet you support raising the minimum wage too, but can't see the contradiction in how that would also cause prices to rise, while you say we need all that cheap illegal labor to keep prices down. But your tiny brain just can't seem to grasp that.

For the record, I support raising the minimum wage, and for reducing illegal immigration so that those employers will have to pay more to get legal workers to do them. I'm not a hypocrite like most of you red avatars.

[DINGO Joe]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

At least were I live, my avocados say they're  from Mexico.  Everything you put in your mouth would cost more.  Illegals immigrant labor dominate the pork, beef, chicken and dairy industry.  The tiny brained racist hicks don't seem to grasp that.

Yup, just keep on exploiting those poor folks you hypocrite. I know you think those brown people are only good for picking your crops and doing all the dirty work you're apparently too good for. I'll bet you support raising the minimum wage too, but can't see the contradiction in how that would also cause prices to rise, while you say we need all that cheap illegal labor to keep prices down. But your tiny brain just can't seem to grasp that.

For the record, I support raising the minimum wage, and for reducing illegal immigration so that those employers will have to pay more to get legal workers to do them. I'm not a hypocrite like most of you red avatars.

Yeah, there are tons of legal workers in the US clamoring to work in ag processing.  Raise the minimum, pay them more, bring in legal workers to do the job, but they're still going to be a huge wave of Hispanics.  At least, they'll get to vote and maybe unionize too.  I'm all for it.

[Technocracy Timmy]

Looking at the map of that prop Im pretty surprised LA County voted for it as well.

At that time the county was more conservative outside of the city of Los Angeles (minus the San Fernando Valley). It was similar Harris County, Texas is right now.

I thought LA county had become Democratic by then as


HW lost LA County in 1988 by 5 points

I believe they’re referring to the cities inside LA county that surround the city of Los Angeles.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Looking at the map of that prop Im pretty surprised LA County voted for it as well.

At that time the county was more conservative outside of the city of Los Angeles (minus the San Fernando Valley). It was similar Harris County, Texas is right now.

I thought LA county had become Democratic by then as


HW lost LA County in 1988 by 5 points

I believe they’re referring to the cities inside LA county that surround the city of Los Angeles.

But the county as a whole  still voted for prop 187 while they voted against HW by 5 points and had trended left since 1988

[DINGO Joe]

Is there anyone here who actually thinks the people doing these hard agricultural, household, hurricane cleanup jobs would be any different if we had a perfect immigration system versus the current one?

[DavidB.]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

Exactly. Thanks for this.

[Intell]

I love all the red avatars talking about needing that cheap illegal labor to exploit so they can have cheap goods and services. You are all disgusting, and should be ashamed of yourselves. "If we had to pay a fair wage for agricultural workers then my avocado toast and soy latte would cost a fortune!"

Exactly. Thanks for this.

Nobody is arguing this, but sure... Saying illegal people should not be exploited and be given government services. DISGUSTING

Also, this is not the fault of those who illegally immigrate but for the business that exploits these workers, that's who we should be harsh on, but of course the republican party will never do that because their donors rely on these workers and hate any attempt to pay workers a living wage and collectively organise.

[dead0man]

To dead0man:

My point is that it's not about California, it's countrywide, or at least anyplace with agriculture. Agriculture needs workers and there isn't a local populace to fill the need.   It's nice that you're willing to pay much more for everything, I think it's debatable whether a majority would.  It would also be interesting to see how that would all work.  It would also be interesting too if they started locking up all the employers of illegal immigrants.  I would imagine the food chain would be radically disrupted and places like Iowa and Nebraska would probably have to double or triple their prison capacity.  

well we wouldn't have to lock up very many of them, for obvious reasons.

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perhaps

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meh, the robots are coming

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racist hicks get angry about a lot of things.  Also, oddly enough, Mexicans (which include a lot of hicks) are more likely to vote the way the hicks vote than the family of the hicks living in the city...if only they (the Ameircan hicks) could stop being so racist and/or anti-Catholic.

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and I say eff 'em.  Eff all the dummies too lazy to move to where the work is.  You ain't special and neither is the hollar your grandpappy homesteaded.

[Famous Mortimer]

Disallowing emergency services would be immoral in my opinion.

Disallowing welfare would work hypothetically but only if we also got rid of birthright citizenship, since most illegal immigrants access welfare through their American born children.

[Famous Mortimer]

Many people see illegal immigration and Mexican as being conterminous. Pete Wilson ran ads showing Mexican people running across highways even though not all undocumented immigrants are Mexican. It was a political proposition to get him re-elected and even almost pulled Michael Huffington over the line for Senate. California still had a lot of racist elements at the time (particularly Southern California) and the rhetoric for Proposition 187 was either low key or outright racist.

It still does.

Of course it does. Lots of the rural areas and some of isolated suburbs have racist incidents.

No they don't. You imagine they do but they don't.

Most of the racial tension incidents in CA are between Mexicans and Blacks and Asians and Blacks.

When there's a racial incident between whites and non-whites, it's usually minor and blown out of proportion by the media, exactly because it's a man bites dog story.

Not to mention the indisputable fact that putting aside the issue of who says mean words more, Blacks and Hispanics are much much more likely to do physical violence to whites than the other way around.

[Torie]

The above post was reported (I choose not to quote it), and I am going to let it go this time. But I had to ponder it, because the controversial/incendiary assertions of fact lack any documentation whatsoever. If you are going to go into edgy territory, at least document the source for your assertions of fact. They are hardly ones that fit into the taking of judicial notice category as it were, because they are so widely accepted as true with documentation readily available everywhere.

[Cold War Liberal]

They come here to do the work that feeds your fat ass (people in general, not you specifically).  Yet you would deprive them (many being children who need education) of basic services because the rule of law.

Let’s start severely punishing these Republican voters relying on undocumented labor, then.  Confiscate their farms, imprison anyone with an ownership interest in these farms, and auction the farms off to people willing to obey the law.

Indeed.  We need to punish the people that hire the illegals more than we do the poor bastards just looking for a job and a better life for his kids.  If it makes our fresh fruit and veggies 40% more expensive to pay what it actually should cost to get an American to pick vegetables for a living, so be it.  Or, ya know, crazy idea here, if there are Mexicans (or whatever) willing to do the work we aren't willing to do, import them (and maybe make sure the healthy Americans that turned down the jobs aren't getting any benefits from the state).

Yay, I can't wait to be out of a job because I work in the food service industry for $12/hr and the price of key ingredients in most of our restaurant's dishes just went up 40% because some idiots can't stand brown people growing their food for them!

Also I see Morty still hasn't ever met anyone who's not a WASP, or lived in a rural area. The Klan is actively recruiting 5 minutes from where I live, and in the counties adjacent to mine too, so obviously SOME rural areas still have racism problems (not that most of the country still doesn't)