Opinion of DavidB

[DavidB.]

HP. He hypocritically supports right wing populists abroad, yet he is scared of them at his own home.

What?

I’m referring to your support of Bolsonaro, when right before mentioned your concern of Nazis engaged on social media in The Netherlands.

I am a (literal) card-carrying member of a right-wing populist party in the Netherlands and I support a right-wing populist in Brazil. No hypocrisy.

I would obviously not support antisemitic far-right forces in Brazil should they exist. Bolsonaro, however, is pro-Jewish - just like FVD, who reiterated their support for Jews and Israel by voting for adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition, for moving the Dutch Embassy to Israel to Jerusalem, and for cutting all Dutch UNRWA funding just yesterday.

At the same time, while highly critical of the attitudes that many American Jews hold and while understanding that some people's views of the Jewish people would not necessarily be affected positively by these people's attitudes and behavior (to put it mildly), I am worried about the growing amount of far-right antisemitism on the Dutch right, which fortunately has no place within FVD. Baudet's criticism of Soros is both legitimate and necessary, and it is ridiculous that some people consider this to be antisemitic.

[PSOL]

HP. He hypocritically supports right wing populists abroad, yet he is scared of them at his own home.

What?

I’m referring to your support of Bolsonaro, when right before mentioned your concern of Nazis engaged on social media in The Netherlands.

I am a (literal) card-carrying member of a right-wing populist party in the Netherlands and I support a right-wing populist in Brazil. No hypocrisy.

I would obviously not support antisemitic far-right forces in Brazil should they exist. Bolsonaro, however, is pro-Jewish - just like FVD, who reiterated their support for Jews and Israel by voting for adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition, for moving the Dutch Embassy to Israel to Jerusalem, and for cutting all Dutch UNRWA funding just yesterday.

At the same time, while highly critical of the attitudes that many American Jews hold and while understanding that some people's views of the Jewish people would not necessarily be affected positively by these people's attitudes and behavior (to put it mildly), I am worried about the growing amount of far-right antisemitism on the Dutch right, which fortunately has no place within FVD. Baudet's criticism of Soros is both legitimate and necessary, and it is ridiculous that some people consider this to be antisemitic.

Exactly, you support the marginalization of everybody else except your own people. All these other minority folks are a bunch of uncivilized criminals, yet our people have been unjustly attacked by the literally same base as these right-wing populists.

I forsee the day when the dog whistles are removed, and the FvD will start attacking the Jewish people. It happened before the rise of the Nazi party, where they didn’t outright attack the Jewish community, just called most of them misguided, and then removed the dog whistle when they gained more power.

[DavidB.]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

[Horus]

Awful in pretty much every way.

[Virginiá]

I'd say by Bolsonaro's own stated beliefs, he is a legitimate threat to the very idea of free and fair elections (or elections at all?) in Brazil, and supporting the idea of choosing your leaders should take precedent over a politician, no matter how many other favorable policies he dangles in one's face. And no, I don't think this is all hyperbole with him. Brazil doesn't have the most stable democracy as it is, and this guy hasn't been shy about what he wants. Plus, I don't get why anyone outside of BR would even want to publicly align with him. What good does that do?

All of this is to say that I really think right-leaning people (there are left-leaning examples too but the right's issues are more prominent atm) are sacrificing at times profound ethical and moral considerations to justify their support for politicians who they like or otherwise support other policies of. How much a person should excuse from their leaders in exchange for policy is a legitimate question of course, but one that is being answered these days in concerning ways.

[they don't love you like i love you]

The weird thing is he got upset about me talking about my church converting Muslims, despite the support of anti-Islam right-wing populists.

[PSOL]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

[DavidB.]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.

Of all the bad things said in this thread, this one is probably the most offensive.

[SATW]

PSOL's rhetoric is a atrocious and disgusting. The twisting of history to fit his own political biases should be rejected by sane people in the mainstream.

I don't agree with DavidB's views much (outside of Jewish issues, and a lot, but not all, of his Israel positions), but some of assertions in this thread are laughable.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Oh, he supports Bolsonaro? Good God.

No wonder Israel is loathed around the world.

[PSOL]

PSOL's rhetoric is a atrocious and disgusting. The twisting of history to fit his own political biases should be rejected by sane people in the mainstream.

I don't agree with DavidB's views much (outside of Jewish issues, and a lot, but not all, of his Israel positions), but some of assertions in this thread are laughable.

If my political biases include wanting my Jewish friends safe from harm, then condemn me.

Exactly what am I twisting? What have I said wrong? That far-right populists don’t demonize ethnic minorities? That politicians putting us into a atmosphere of fear leads to violence against those already marginalized? Look at right now, with Brietbart and Trump just blowing a whistle away, with the consistent rise of antisemetic attacks.

[DavidB.]

Oh, he supports Bolsonaro? Good God.

No wonder Israel is loathed around the world.

There might be plenty of (mostly made-up) reasons why Israel is disliked, but I'm pretty sure the opinions of one random Jewish guy in the Netherlands who doesn't hold Israeli citizenship aren't among these reasons.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Oh, he supports Bolsonaro? Good God.

No wonder Israel is loathed around the world.

There might be plenty of (mostly made-up) reasons why Israel is disliked, but I'm pretty sure the opinions of one random Jewish guy in the Netherlands who doesn't hold Israeli citizenship aren't among these reasons.

(mostly made-up)

ayy lmao

[SATW]

PSOL's rhetoric is a atrocious and disgusting. The twisting of history to fit his own political biases should be rejected by sane people in the mainstream.

I don't agree with DavidB's views much (outside of Jewish issues, and a lot, but not all, of his Israel positions), but some of assertions in this thread are laughable.

If my political biases include wanting my Jewish friends safe from harm, then condemn me.

Exactly what am I twisting? What have I said wrong? That far-right populists don’t demonize ethnic minorities? That politicians putting us into a atmosphere of fear leads to violence against those already marginalized? Look at right now, with Brietbart and Trump just blowing a whistle away, with the consistent rise of antisemetic attacks.

Both DavidB and I are Jewish. ParrotGuy is also Jewish and gets along w/ both of us. I appreciate your concern about right-wing antisemitism and bigotry - I am also concerned about it. I am also concerned about left-wing antisemitism and Islamic antisemitism. It is possible to oppose all forms of antisemitism at once and still maintain objectivity about which threats are larger or smaller at certain periods of time.

However, the rhetoric you are using is not helpful, imo. As I said, I don't agree w/ DavidB views on nationalism and on certain political parties but you are labeling everything under one basket.

Not every populist party is the same. Also, more problematic, for me at least, is the insinuation that DavidB doesn't know or care about the threats facing the Jewish community. 

[Wells]

tolerable as long as you skip over his posts about israel and bolsonaro.

[Mr. Reactionary]

No wonder (((Israel))) is loathed around the world.

FTFY

[White Trash]

I like him quite a bit. I think that these criticisms of him being a right-wing populist and Jewish are just bizarre.

[Gustaf]

Apart from his passionate support for fascists and racists...well, I haven't really seen anything else from him. Oh, except that he's one of those right-wing hypocrites who gets offended over everything but think everyone else getting offended needs to suck it up.

I guess the one positive is that he does seem to feel a tiny tiny bit sad when he realizes he's empowering and supporting anti-semites. But it's such a tiny bit it doesn't go very far.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

Friend, please stop goysplaing anti-Semitism.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

When did the German pre-Hitler nationalist right use dog whistles against Jews as opposed to just saying it straight out? 
This was a 1919 poster from the DNVP - the largest German party on the right for most the Weimar period (note Nazis weren't the first ones to use the swastika)

[Mopsus]

One of the few posters keeping this site readable.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

When did the German pre-Hitler nationalist right use dog whistles against Jews as opposed to just saying it straight out? 
This was a 1919 poster from the DNVP - the largest German party on the right for most the Weimar period (note Nazis weren't the first ones to use the swastika)
-snip-

Slightly off-topic but that's kind of interesting.  Hitler literally doodled symbols he was considering for the NSDAP:



"Hmm... vich one of these looks scarier?"

[PSOL]

PSOL's rhetoric is a atrocious and disgusting. The twisting of history to fit his own political biases should be rejected by sane people in the mainstream.

I don't agree with DavidB's views much (outside of Jewish issues, and a lot, but not all, of his Israel positions), but some of assertions in this thread are laughable.

If my political biases include wanting my Jewish friends safe from harm, then condemn me.

Exactly what am I twisting? What have I said wrong? That far-right populists don’t demonize ethnic minorities? That politicians putting us into a atmosphere of fear leads to violence against those already marginalized? Look at right now, with Brietbart and Trump just blowing a whistle away, with the consistent rise of antisemetic attacks.

Both DavidB and I are Jewish. ParrotGuy is also Jewish and gets along w/ both of us. I appreciate your concern about right-wing antisemitism and bigotry - I am also concerned about it. I am also concerned about left-wing antisemitism and Islamic antisemitism. It is possible to oppose all forms of antisemitism at once and still maintain objectivity about which threats are larger or smaller at certain periods of time.

However, the rhetoric you are using is not helpful, imo. As I said, I don't agree w/ DavidB views on nationalism and on certain political parties but you are labeling everything under one basket.

Not every populist party is the same. Also, more problematic, for me at least, is the insinuation that DavidB doesn't know or care about the threats facing the Jewish community. 

Yes, we should objectively take into account major sources of antisemetic attacks on the Jewish community, of which right now is coming from the far right. With a rise in Nazi parties, I worry about my Jewish friends and my own safety. I see that even after winning an election, the Swedish Democrat’s continue to hurl offenses at the Jewish community. I see increased mobilization against the German state by Nazi groups, emboldened by AFD’s rise.

In caring for my friends, I have denounced any growth of cultural anxiety. That ranges from Jewish people being harassed and expelled in Northern Sweden by the Knights of Odin, to Israeli land taking in the West Bank. In doing so I bring the example of Jewish pogroms and murder to light to poke holes in the arguments of others. I know it hurts, but it is true.

DavidB is not only self-serving in his beliefs, but hypocritical in supporting the rhetoric that has and will continue to get people like him, you, and others killed than and now. I believe that DavidB is letting his utter hatred of women, minorities, and left of center parties get in the way of his self perseverance. How is pointing out reality not helping? How is warning someone of their possible doom not helping?

I am concerned that you moved the goal post by railing against criticism of Israel and Islamist(really just another flavor of right wing) antisemitism, since I made no utter of that in my critique of DavidB’s support of an admitted racist and wannabe dictator in Brazil.

Look, if you are just gonna play good cop, don’t tell it to someone who lost his mind at Hillgoose’s posting style or has railed against whataboutery. I’ve tried to dance across this but no, just no. I see reality and know that I must work for the protection and benefit of my nation, to not collapse the great experiment by falling under what our liberal values stand against.

[Horus]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

Friend, please stop goysplaing anti-Semitism.

even when he's right?

[PSOL]

Strawmanning + moving the goalposts (your initial claim was that I don't support right-wing populists in NL) + a stunning lack of historical knowledge (Nazis never quite concealed their antisemitism).

I assumed you supported PM Rutte and the VVD.


Friend, look at history. It is not disputed that when classical conservatives started saying that Germany needs to cleanse itself of immoral elements, that atmosphere led to the rise of the Nazi Party . When the dog whistles were taken down, the most anti-semetic of them won.
That environment of condemnation against inner enemies, and support of making the country purged of bad influences, will always lead to attacks against those who were always hated by the far right.

They are going to come after you. Maybe you can say you believed in the right things and was a model citizen in their eyes, but that didn’t help German-Jewish Veterans from WW1.

When did the German pre-Hitler nationalist right use dog whistles against Jews as opposed to just saying it straight out?  
This was a 1919 poster from the DNVP - the largest German party on the right for most the Weimar period (note Nazis weren't the first ones to use the swastika)

Admittedly I’m getting this from an article from a Weimar era Christian Party not hating Jews explicitly, but condemning them for bringing in ill. There is also the railings of liberal values by the Junckers, guess who was blamed in secret for spreading them.

Also on “goysplaining”-My god, you sound exactly like when Charles Taylor and Robert Mugabe condemned imperialism for when they were ethnically cleansing their countries. You can’t copyright history.