Russia seizes Ukrainian ships near Crimea after firing at them
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  Russia seizes Ukrainian ships near Crimea after firing at them
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Author Topic: Russia seizes Ukrainian ships near Crimea after firing at them  (Read 3028 times)
Green Line
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2018, 08:18:55 PM »


Unfortunately Canada's cute memes arent't going to do much when Russia invades the rest of Ukriane.  US troops should go in to the Western areas up to Kiev.
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PSOL
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2018, 11:40:23 PM »

President Big Boy will do nothing if they do.
Only the US is supposed to care about this?
Well we are contractually obliged to defend Ukrainian sovereignty. I think it was the same deal that made them denuclearize.
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kelestian
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2018, 02:59:56 AM »

This is bad. Russia is apparently preparing for a full scale invasion.

Now? No way. It's more about status of Crimea and internal Ukrainian politics.

Basicallt, what happened: under previous agreements, Ukraine should have free passage through Kerch strait, but Russia feared possible attack on new Kerch Bridge and so demand from ukrainian ships russian inspection. They didn't agree
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Proto
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2018, 05:36:26 AM »


Well we are contractually obliged to defend Ukrainian sovereignty. I think it was the same deal that made them denuclearize.
The USA must defend Ukraine. That does not mean it must defend Poroshenko https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEKvNy69v-iGa7t0bvssb2TIqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowjtSUCjC30XQw_qe5AQ?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
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dead0man
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2018, 09:12:28 AM »

President Big Boy will do nothing if they do.
Only the US is supposed to care about this?
Well we are contractually obliged to defend Ukrainian sovereignty. I think it was the same deal that made them denuclearize.
The UK signed that deal too.  To a lesser extent, France as well.  And to much lesser extent, so did the PRC.
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GMantis
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2018, 09:40:36 AM »

President Big Boy will do nothing if they do.
Only the US is supposed to care about this?
Well we are contractually obliged to defend Ukrainian sovereignty. I think it was the same deal that made them denuclearize.
Now, in 2018, this blatant falsehood is still repeated? The Bucharest memorandum obliges the US (and Russia and the UK) not to infringe Ukrainian sovereignty, but it has no provisions for defending it against anyone. Read it here.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2018, 09:45:10 AM »

Actually a surprise a thing like this hasn't happend long before.

The point here is that the conflict on Crimea is almost unsolvable. If the West ever accepts the annexion, it would send horrible signals to the world and autocrats. That we once again can move borders with force and that agreements such as the Budapest agreement from 1994 are not worth the paper. On the other hand, the West can't free Crimea without starting a third world war. Russia is not just giving it back to Ukraine. The only solution would be a new and fair referendum under UN oversight that all sides agree to recognize regardless of the outcome. But I don't see this happening in the coming years or even decades. It will remain a frozen conflict similar to Transnistria or the unsolved Taiwan question.
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ag
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2018, 11:57:56 AM »

While nobody is likely to defend Ukraine, arguably it is entitled to consider itself free of any obligations under the non-proliferation regime. It certainly has the expertise to re-establish nuclear capacity and it should not be hindered by the powers that have failed as guarantors.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2018, 03:14:47 PM »

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Frozen Sky Ever Why
ShadowOfTheWave
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2018, 04:00:32 PM »

While nobody is likely to defend Ukraine, arguably it is entitled to consider itself free of any obligations under the non-proliferation regime. It certainly has the expertise to re-establish nuclear capacity and it should not be hindered by the powers that have failed as guarantors.

Ukraine getting nukes is a great idea actually, since contrary to alarmists nukes prevent war. The reason the US and the Soviets were able to avoid war was the possibility of mutual destruction. A nuclear Ukraine could prevent a further escalation.
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ag
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2018, 04:51:02 PM »

While nobody is likely to defend Ukraine, arguably it is entitled to consider itself free of any obligations under the non-proliferation regime. It certainly has the expertise to re-establish nuclear capacity and it should not be hindered by the powers that have failed as guarantors.

Ukraine getting nukes is a great idea actually, since contrary to alarmists nukes prevent war. The reason the US and the Soviets were able to avoid war was the possibility of mutual destruction. A nuclear Ukraine could prevent a further escalation.

It is not at all a great idea, as Ukraine getting the nukes will likely lead the way to many other countries doing the same, and, eventually, they will be used.  But, under the circmstances, it may be better than the alternative.
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dead0man
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2018, 08:24:31 PM »

Actually a surprise a thing like this hasn't happend long before.

The point here is that the conflict on Crimea is almost unsolvable. If the West ever accepts the annexion, it would send horrible signals to the world and autocrats. That we once again can move borders with force and that agreements such as the Budapest agreement from 1994 are not worth the paper. On the other hand, the West can't free Crimea without starting a third world war. Russia is not just giving it back to Ukraine.
If the leaders in the west had shown any balls at all when Russia invaded Georgia they wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.  Russia can't win a war against the west and they certainly aren't going to start a nuclear exchange (which they wouldn't win either) over a Black Sea resort and port.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2018, 01:21:27 AM »

All that needs to be done is to say to Russia that if you aren't going to give Ukraine free access thru the Kerch Strait, Russia doesn't get free access thru the Bosporus.That should make Putin realize the can of worms he's opening up.
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Cashew
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2018, 02:06:15 AM »
« Edited: November 28, 2018, 02:09:48 AM by Cashew »

All that needs to be done is to say to Russia that if you aren't going to give Ukraine free access thru the Kerch Strait, Russia doesn't get free access thru the Bosporus.That should make Putin realize the can of worms he's opening up.

Thats not exactly the same, acknowledging Turkey's right do do so means the countries pushing for this would be relinquishing their righs to the Bosporous as well, in addition to actually having to convince Trukey to do so.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2018, 07:53:45 AM »

All that needs to be done is to say to Russia that if you aren't going to give Ukraine free access thru the Kerch Strait, Russia doesn't get free access thru the Bosporus.That should make Putin realize the can of worms he's opening up.

Thats not exactly the same, acknowledging Turkey's right do do so means the countries pushing for this would be relinquishing their rights to the Bosporous as well, in addition to actually having to convince Trukey to do so.

This, at least theoretically, can be limited to Russia because it is denying the right to traverse "national" waters to go from one area of international waters to another and thus should not be able to claim the same right for their ships. Still, I agree it's unlikely to implemented.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2018, 10:22:19 AM »

All that needs to be done is to say to Russia that if you aren't going to give Ukraine free access thru the Kerch Strait, Russia doesn't get free access thru the Bosporus.That should make Putin realize the can of worms he's opening up.

Thats not exactly the same, acknowledging Turkey's right do do so means the countries pushing for this would be relinquishing their rights to the Bosporous as well, in addition to actually having to convince Trukey to do so.

This, at least theoretically, can be limited to Russia because it is denying the right to traverse "national" waters to go from one area of international waters to another and thus should not be able to claim the same right for their ships. Still, I agree it's unlikely to implemented.

Or the Street of Gibraltar and/or Suez Canal instead. The issue here is that Russia and Ukraine have a treaty from 2003 that grants free access to the Sea of Azov.
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Proto
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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2018, 11:01:46 AM »
« Edited: November 29, 2018, 10:41:15 PM by Proto »



Or the Street of Gibraltar and/or Suez Canal instead. The issue here is that Russia and Ukraine have a treaty from 2003 that grants free access to the Sea of Azov.
Russians are planning to replace Suez by another route https://sputniknews.com/business/201811011069409510-north-south-transport-corridor-suez-canal
I won't be surprised if they build alternatives to Gibraltar and Bosporus.
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Co-Chair Bagel23
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2018, 04:28:19 PM »

Ukraine sucks, let’s go my ancestral homeland Russia! Also if they are close enough to nuclear capabilities, there is a good chance that Russia will invade them and destroy them within a matter of weeks. And no one will be there to stop it bwahaha.
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Proto
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« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2018, 05:54:04 AM »

Ukraine sucks, let’s go my ancestral homeland Russia! Also if they are close enough to nuclear capabilities, there is a good chance that Russia will invade them and destroy them within a matter of weeks. And no one will be there to stop it bwahaha.
Ukraine has been a loyal US ally. The US will never allow Russia to invade Ukraine
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jfern
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« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2018, 06:12:07 AM »

The US will never allow Russia to invade Ukraine

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Proto
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« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2018, 07:25:14 AM »

The map above means nothing. Some people in these regions may sympathize Russia, and what of it? Putin will never dare to invade Ukraine.
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Co-Chair Bagel23
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« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2018, 03:43:06 PM »
« Edited: December 02, 2018, 03:48:39 PM by Prolocutor Bagel23 »

Ukraine sucks, let’s go my ancestral homeland Russia! Also if they are close enough to nuclear capabilities, there is a good chance that Russia will invade them and destroy them within a matter of weeks. And no one will be there to stop it bwahaha.
Ukraine has been a loyal US ally. The US will never allow Russia to invade Ukraine

Lol yeah sure Trump would totally stop them, no you are right. Even a stronger anti-Russia admin was totally there when Russia just casually claimed Crimea and with it 80% of Ukrainian naval capabilities, and a nice size chunk out of Donbass. It’s not like that was a lot of land that belonged to Ukraine or anything, some of which is valuable was just taken over by Russia, there’s been no invasion at all.
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jfern
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« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2018, 05:49:27 PM »

The map above means nothing. Some people in these regions may sympathize Russia, and what of it? Putin will never dare to invade Ukraine.

Russia already invaded somewhere around 10%.
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Proto
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« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2018, 08:41:59 PM »

The map above means nothing. Some people in these regions may sympathize Russia, and what of it? Putin will never dare to invade Ukraine.

Russia already invaded somewhere around 10%.
And got into much trouble. Living standards are getting worse, Putin' approval ratings having plunged to 30% - less tban Trump's ones.
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Horus
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« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2018, 09:09:46 PM »

It's so interesting how low Putin's approvals are. I never would've expected that, figured he'd be president for life.. now perhaps not?
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