Israeli General Election: April 9, 2019

[DavidB.]

I think that Labor and Meretz should consider seriously a refoundation based on a serious revision of the zionist dogma.

If they wish to become electorally marginalized, sure. By now it should be clear that left-of-center voters are all but married to Labour. If Labour are perceived as untrustworthy on the long-term security of the state, these voters will simply jump ship and vote for another, more credible contender to Likud - Kadima, Yesh Atid...

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis want to live in a Jewish state. They disagree on the borders and size of this state, but even most (and I would perhaps say especially) supporters of a two-state solution want this, with a lot of people supporting the two-state solution because it would preserve the Jewish character of the state. "Revising" Zionism means calling into question Israel's raison d'être, which is something most Israelis have no interest in at all. So a party that does this would simply become electorally irrelevant.

[Velasco]

Maybe the revision of zionism requires the same kind of courage and vision displayed by Rabin, back in the day.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I think that Labor and Meretz should consider seriously a refoundation based on a serious revision of the zionist dogma.

If they wish to become electorally marginalized, sure. By now it should be clear that left-of-center voters are all but married to Labour. If Labour are perceived as untrustworthy on the long-term security of the state, these voters will simply jump ship and vote for another, more credible contender to Likud - Kadima, Yesh Atid...

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis want to live in a Jewish state. They disagree on the borders and size of this state, but even most (and I would perhaps say especially) supporters of a two-state solution want this, with a lot of people supporting the two-state solution because it would preserve the Jewish character of the state. "Revising" Zionism means calling into question Israel's raison d'être, which is something most Israelis have no interest in at all. So a party that does this would simply become electorally irrelevant.

Yep. Besides, Zionism is just Jewish nationalism- not that different from the wish of Germans or Italians to live in a German/Italian country (although Zionism is unique in some ways). Revising it means we don't believe in our right of self-determination.

[DavidB.]

First poll after the election was more or less called:

Likud 29 (-1 compared to GE15)
Benny Gantz Party 16 (new, +16)
Joint List 12 (-1)
Yesh Atid 11 (nc)
Zionist Union 11 (-13)
Jewish Home 9 (+1)
UTJ 7 (+1)
YB 7 (+1)
Meretz 5 (+1)
Kulanu 5 (-5)
Shas 5 (-2)
Orly Levy Party 4 (new, +4)

What's the dealio with Gantz? Is this really happening? If so, what's his niche? Would be kind of tragic for YA to be polling so well for years just to have all these voters move on to Gantz.

[jaichind]

I assume Orly Levy  will go with Likud in any post-election scenario.

[brucejoel99]

I am always surprised how Likud support always seems to hold up despite various Netanyahu scandals.

[Comrade Funk]

First poll after the election was more or less called:

Likud 29 (-1 compared to GE15)
Benny Gantz Party 16 (new, +16)
Joint List 12 (-1)
Yesh Atid 11 (nc)
Zionist Union 11 (-13)
Jewish Home 9 (+1)
UTJ 7 (+1)
YB 7 (+1)
Meretz 5 (+1)
Kulanu 5 (-5)
Shas 5 (-2)
Orly Levy Party 4 (new, +4)

What's the dealio with Gantz? Is this really happening? If so, what's his niche? Would be kind of tragic for YA to be polling so well for years just to have all these voters move on to Gantz.

Why do they guys always have to start a new party. There are enough parties as is.

[Oryxslayer]

First poll after the election was more or less called:

Likud 29 (-1 compared to GE15)
Benny Gantz Party 16 (new, +16)
Joint List 12 (-1)
Yesh Atid 11 (nc)
Zionist Union 11 (-13)
Jewish Home 9 (+1)
UTJ 7 (+1)
YB 7 (+1)
Meretz 5 (+1)
Kulanu 5 (-5)
Shas 5 (-2)
Orly Levy Party 4 (new, +4)

What's the dealio with Gantz? Is this really happening? If so, what's his niche? Would be kind of tragic for YA to be polling so well for years just to have all these voters move on to Gantz.

Why do they guys always have to start a new party. There are enough parties as is.

Well, when your electoral rules are are only a touch more restrictive then the open Dutch system, you are incentivised to form a new party rather than reconcile differences within parties.

[Alabama_Indy10]

Let’s go Bibi!

[Velasco]

I think that Labor and Meretz should consider seriously a refoundation based on a serious revision of the zionist dogma.

If they wish to become electorally marginalized, sure. By now it should be clear that left-of-center voters are all but married to Labour. If Labour are perceived as untrustworthy on the long-term security of the state, these voters will simply jump ship and vote for another, more credible contender to Likud - Kadima, Yesh Atid...

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis want to live in a Jewish state. They disagree on the borders and size of this state, but even most (and I would perhaps say especially) supporters of a two-state solution want this, with a lot of people supporting the two-state solution because it would preserve the Jewish character of the state. "Revising" Zionism means calling into question Israel's raison d'être, which is something most Israelis have no interest in at all. So a party that does this would simply become electorally irrelevant.

Yep. Besides, Zionism is just Jewish nationalism- not that different from the wish of Germans or Italians to live in a German/Italian country (although Zionism is unique in some ways). Revising it means we don't believe in our right of self-determination.

We had this discussion before and I don't want to engage in another. Anyway I read "Zionism is just Jewish nationalism" and this is a flawed sentence.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism, but not only. In late XIX century early zionists advocated the colonization of lands in Palestine, in order to pave the ground for the establishment of a Jewish State. Hence Zionism is also a colonialist ideology, because its primary goal was the colonization of a country inhabited by the Palestinians.

I'm not going to delve into Zionism. Maybe there are positive aspects in what regards national and cultural building, but the negative aspects of Zionism weigh like heavy stones. Forced displacement of Palestinians during the Nakba, military occupation after the Six Days War with the aubsequent establishment of isolated ghettos, discrimination within Israeli borders and the unstoppable march towards the apartheid state are consequences of Zionism.

I would say that the murder of Rabin (a "hawk" turned into "dove") was a turnung point. Anyway the evolution of Zionism over time and the increasing power of the ultranationalist faction seem logical consequences. The Zionist "left" has became increasingly marginal and it is very unlikely that "doves" and "progressives" regain power anytime soon. Also, there is huge cintradiction between the ideals of fraternity and social justice unherent to the left, and even the foundational principles of Israel, and the reality on the ground. Discrimination, occupation, colonization, apartheid are not compatible with such principles. Therefore historical analysis, self-crticism and revision of core idrological principles seem necessary to me. Engaging this debate could be a good decision in terms of vision and long term strategy, even if it seems tactically wrong in the short term. Also, it's a matter of justice.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I think that Labor and Meretz should consider seriously a refoundation based on a serious revision of the zionist dogma.

If they wish to become electorally marginalized, sure. By now it should be clear that left-of-center voters are all but married to Labour. If Labour are perceived as untrustworthy on the long-term security of the state, these voters will simply jump ship and vote for another, more credible contender to Likud - Kadima, Yesh Atid...

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis want to live in a Jewish state. They disagree on the borders and size of this state, but even most (and I would perhaps say especially) supporters of a two-state solution want this, with a lot of people supporting the two-state solution because it would preserve the Jewish character of the state. "Revising" Zionism means calling into question Israel's raison d'être, which is something most Israelis have no interest in at all. So a party that does this would simply become electorally irrelevant.

Yep. Besides, Zionism is just Jewish nationalism- not that different from the wish of Germans or Italians to live in a German/Italian country (although Zionism is unique in some ways). Revising it means we don't believe in our right of self-determination.

We had this discussion before and I don't want to engage in another. Anyway I read "Zionism is just Jewish nationalism" and this is a flawed sentence.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism, but not only. In late XIX century early zionists advocated the colonization of lands in Palestine, in order to pave the ground for the establishment of a Jewish State. Hence Zionism is also a colonialist ideology, because its primary goal was the colonization of a country inhabited by the Palestinians.

I'm not going to delve into Zionism. Maybe there are positive aspects in what regards national and cultural building, but the negative aspects of Zionism weigh like heavy stones. Forced displacement of Palestinians during the Nakba, military occupation after the Six Days War with the aubsequent establishment of isolated ghettos, discrimination within Israeli borders and the unstoppable march towards the apartheid state are consequences of Zionism.

I would say that the murder of Rabin (a "hawk" turned into "dove") was a turnung point. Anyway the evolution of Zionism over time and the increasing power of the ultranationalist faction seem logical consequences. The Zionist "left" has became increasingly marginal and it is very unlikely that "doves" and "progressives" regain power anytime soon. Also, there is huge cintradiction between the ideals of fraternity and social justice unherent to the left, and even the foundational principles of Israel, and the reality on the ground. Discrimination, occupation, colonization, apartheid are not compatible with such principles. Therefore historical analysis, self-crticism and revision of core idrological principles seem necessary to me. Engaging this debate could be a good decision in terms of vision and long term strategy, even if it seems tactically wrong in the short term. Also, it's a matter of justice.

This is all a bunch of stale, dishonest arguments that I heard a thousand times over and responded to a thousand times over, and like everyone else that spews this BS, you ignore half the historical facts. I'm not going to respond to you with counterarguments considering that, and the fact that this is an election thread meant to discuss an election, not delve into arguments we're all very tired of. If you want, you can see my response to JA as to why I believe the far-left's "zionism is colonialism" doctrine is heavily influenced by antisemitic stereotypes and biases: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=308412.25 . I'm not going to speak any further on this blood libel.

I'd just ask you to speak with more knowledge when you come to an Israeli politics thread. We don't need these arguments here. Asking an Israeli party to embracy an anti-zionist agenda is just not smart, like David pointed out, whatever you believe ideologically.

[Velasco]

I said in a previous post which was, in my opinion, the turning point in the demise of the Zionist Left. That is appropiate for an election thread  It wasn't my intention to make an exhaustive historical revision. Anyway the few historical facts that I mentioned are true (if I remember well you deny the Nakba, but that's not my problem) . Reality is much more nuanced than a few facts, that's for sure. However, I'm not Donald Trump and I  never put dishonest arguments in a discussion. Should I feel outraged by your claim? I'm sorry if you don't like my opinions, but I would say with total honesty that I'm more concerned about any villager in the West Bank (not to mention the Gaza hellhole). Anyway this is only an internet forum and what we say here is totally irrelevant...

 In my opinion the policies of the sIsraeli government are increasingly indefensible and it's becoming increasingly clear that Israel heads towards a Jewish-only state in open contradiction with the nation's foundational pronciples...

[DavidB.]

I think this type of discussion is better suited for the general discussion thread. This one is about the election. So I'll reiterate my question:

What's the dealio with Gantz? Is this really happening? If so, what's his niche?

I saw that ZU had already tried to do the "if you can't beat them, have them join you" thing by inviting him to lead the Zionist Union, but he refused, LOL.

[crals]

Could Likud ditch the religious parties atter the election or is that unrealistic?

[America Needs R'hllor]

I think this type of discussion is better suited for the general discussion thread. This one is about the election. So I'll reiterate my question:

What's the dealio with Gantz? Is this really happening? If so, what's his niche?

I saw that ZU had already tried to do the "if you can't beat them, have them join you" thing by inviting him to lead the Zionist Union, but he refused, LOL.

Gantz is apparently looking to enter the election as a centrist, "responsible and calm leadership" type that attracts support from all across the spectrum. Polls show he does manage to take a few seats from the right.

Yeah, the ZU is increasingly sad. I'm probably still going to support them, but it's looking pathetic.

[DavidB.]

What's Gantz' stance (if any) on cooperation with Likud? And would YA ready to give it another try?

[America Needs R'hllor]

What's Gantz' stance (if any) on cooperation with Likud? And would YA ready to give it another try?

We know literally nothing about Gantz as of now. He's an enigma. Likud does seem to want cooperation with him, so if I had to guess he'd be willing to consider it, but I doubt he'd support Bibi if an indictment comes his way. As for YA- Lapid refused to rule this out, but I'm not sure it'll happen after their sour relationship following the first Likud-YA coalition.

[Hnv1]

What's Gantz' stance (if any) on cooperation with Likud? And would YA ready to give it another try?

Ganz has yet to make a single comment about anything

[Oryxslayer]

Gantz seems like he is trying to go the Macron route, but as we saw in France, that route requires a few of the other competitors to screw up, causing voters to reevaluate their positions. We won't know until 2019 if the Bibi scandals are that catalyst, but I doubt it.

[Umengus]

 For now, Gantz capitalizes on his silence but at a moment, he will have to speak and when this moment will arrive, he will begin to lose voters.

[danny]

A bunch of parties (though not all) are going to go through primaries soon to get the lists ready for the election. The first to announce a date is the national union, which is the more right wing part of the Jewish Home, with the primaries taking place on January 14.

[America Needs R'hllor]

A bunch of parties (though not all) are going to go through primaries soon to get the lists ready for the election. The first to announce a date is the national union, which is the more right wing part of the Jewish Home, with the primaries taking place on January 14.

Labour is, I think, January 31st.
Also, in the National Union there seems to be a battle for leadership between incumbent Uri Ariel and raging homophobe Betzalel Smotrich. I actually root for the latter, it'll help reveal the true face of the Jewish Home.

[Hnv1]

ZU polled at 7 today, that must be the all time low. Zandberg is trying desperately to get some labour MKs to switch sides, her position in Meretz isn't good (she's not up for a challenge now but she will be devoured following the coming defeat).

Galant is leaving Kulano for Likud, Alalof is retiring, and Azaria kicked out.

Meretz Primaries are probably going to take place on 12.2

[Comrade Funk]

Gantz is in

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-idf-chief-gantz-unveils-new-political-party-ahead-of-april-elections/

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I wonder if Chancellor Kurz will campaign with PM Netanyahu in Israel ahead of the election.

I think he might ...

They love right wing Austrians in Israel I hear.