Rioting in Paris

[dazzleman]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

Agreed.

I agree. There is somewhat of an 'American identity', but it seems to be based on relatively superficial leisure-time activities that are uniquely American. In the deeper cultural layer, in terms of who we actually are at a family level, there is much less American-blood so to speak, and that is where the diversity kicks in. Americans actually live their lives very similarly to each other I'd bet, in comparison with European nations, but are less likely to share deeper cultural bonds that go back centuries.

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

One of my ancestors was a Bronx Republican, LOL.

[dazzleman]

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

One of my ancestors was a Bronx Republican, LOL.

That's a rare breed.

[Akno21]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

Agreed.

I agree. There is somewhat of an 'American identity', but it seems to be based on relatively superficial leisure-time activities that are uniquely American. In the deeper cultural layer, in terms of who we actually are at a family level, there is much less American-blood so to speak, and that is where the diversity kicks in. Americans actually live their lives very similarly to each other I'd bet, in comparison with European nations, but are less likely to share deeper cultural bonds that go back centuries.

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

I'm not even so sure I'd go that far, I was thinking along the lines of most Americans play video games, pig out on fast food, etc. That unites us a lot more than beliefs, IMHO.

The largest set of American beliefs is probably a less extreme version of StatesRights, the socially conservative, globally aggressive, the god, guns, gays people. But after that, there are many minor groups (maybe 5-10%) that don't fit in with the redneck American belief sterotype. True liberals, typical African-American Democrats, soccer moms; Americans like that combined make up a sizable percentage of the population, though not as much as the dyed-in-the-wool conservative Republican, and they all have very different belief systems, just the 4 groups of people mentioned above.

[dazzleman]

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

I'm not even so sure I'd go that far, I was thinking along the lines of most Americans play video games, pig out on fast food, etc. That unites us a lot more than beliefs, IMHO.

The largest set of American beliefs is probably a less extreme version of StatesRights, the socially conservative, globally aggressive, the god, guns, gays people. But after that, there are many minor groups (maybe 5-10%) that don't fit in with the redneck American belief sterotype. True liberals, typical African-American Democrats, soccer moms; Americans like that combined make up a sizable percentage of the population, though not as much as the dyed-in-the-wool conservative Republican, and they all have very different belief systems, just the 4 groups of people mentioned above.

I don't agree with you at all.  I'm talking about more basic beliefs, not political views.

[Akno21]

Americans are united more by a set of beliefs than by cultural bonds from the past.  That's what makes us unique.

I'm not even so sure I'd go that far, I was thinking along the lines of most Americans play video games, pig out on fast food, etc. That unites us a lot more than beliefs, IMHO.

The largest set of American beliefs is probably a less extreme version of StatesRights, the socially conservative, globally aggressive, the god, guns, gays people. But after that, there are many minor groups (maybe 5-10%) that don't fit in with the redneck American belief sterotype. True liberals, typical African-American Democrats, soccer moms; Americans like that combined make up a sizable percentage of the population, though not as much as the dyed-in-the-wool conservative Republican, and they all have very different belief systems, just the 4 groups of people mentioned above.

I don't agree with you at all.  I'm talking about more basic beliefs, not political views.

I'm not talking about tax cuts.

I guess it depends how you define basic belief. But I think that not too far down the list of basic beliefs it will turn into political questions. I guess most Americans are charitable and religous, if those qualify as basic beliefs.

[Michael Z]

Riot erupts in Lyon's city centre.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4430540.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Maybe it really would have been better to have these riots 10,15,20 years ago...

[Storebought]

Michael,

You're partially right, but the plain truth is that not only has Europe failed to assimilate immigrants on a economic level, but they have also failed on a cultural level despite their well-intentioned, feel-good rhetoric. The whole "multi-cultural" model merely creates a society of large groups of individuals who have no connection to each other. In France, which has failed far worse than most European nations, the Socialist Welfare state combined with "respect" for diversity creates a short term "good feeling" among the dominant class, but it has proven a prescription for long term disaster.

Correct.  Thankfully, America has not been  taken over by that attitude, and not coincidentally we have the world's most peaceful Muslims.

Most American Arabs are Christians from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, etc.

Most American Muslims, OTOH, follow the beliefs of this man:



and take The Final Call as second scripture.

[??????????]

Storebought,

That's a photo of one sick SOB!

[Max Power]

Most American Muslims, OTOH, follow the beliefs of this man:



and take The Final Call as second scripture.

Muslims follow Islam, not the Nation of Islam.

[J. J.]

Most American Muslims, OTOH, follow the beliefs of this man:



and take The Final Call as second scripture.

Muslims follow Islam, not the Nation of Islam.

I don't know the statistic but I can think of at least three Masajid in my area that are not associated with the Nation of Islam, and one that is.      Philadelphia also has a Muslim Chief of Police that is Muslim and not associated with the Nation of Islam.

[J. J.]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10002025/

It looks like it is getting worse.

[AuH2O]

The US is based on civic nationalism, i.e. a belief in the country as a nation of certain laws and ideals. France is based on ethnic nationalism-- they're on the Fifth Republic for cryin' out loud. But the whole time they've been French.

Ethnic nationalism is a much more stable model, because if the government has problems it does not disrupt society so much. In the US, a decline in civic nationalism would at some point mean civil conflict. Simply basic laws of human nature.

That, by the way, is why leftism is so dangerous in the US particularly. An "internationalist" perspective can only mean the very violent collapse of the US, with rather negative consequences for the "international community" as well.

[Middle-aged Europe]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10002025/

It looks like it is getting worse.

Funny, the media reports in Germany are giving the impression that the overall situation (apart from the events in Lyon) has calmed down a bit since curfew has been imposed in France. For example, there was a major soccer match between Germany and France in Paris yesterday and it was feared that riots could happen again during/after the game. But everything stayed calm there this night.

[Beet]

The US is based on civic nationalism, i.e. a belief in the country as a nation of certain laws and ideals. France is based on ethnic nationalism-- they're on the Fifth Republic for cryin' out loud. But the whole time they've been French.

Ethnic nationalism is a much more stable model, because if the government has problems it does not disrupt society so much. In the US, a decline in civic nationalism would at some point mean civil conflict. Simply basic laws of human nature.

That, by the way, is why leftism is so dangerous in the US particularly. An "internationalist" perspective can only mean the very violent collapse of the US, with rather negative consequences for the "international community" as well.

AuH20, what, in your view, is an "internationalist" perspective, and how is this supposed to lead to "the very violent" collapse of society? It is my mind that the US will not collapse unless certain people want it to, nor will descend into violence unless the violence is wilfully brought into being, and historically it has been conservatives who have shown the most tendencies toward both separatism and violence.

[Joe Republic]

Where and when do the rioters sleep?  And eat?  That's what I want to know.

[Gabu]

Where and when do the rioters sleep?  And eat?  That's what I want to know.

They need no sleep, for they are the denizens of hell, and they feed on the raw hatred of the human race.

Or, perhaps I don't know.

[dazzleman]

Where and when do the rioters sleep?  And eat?  That's what I want to know.

They sleep during the day.  It's not as if they have jobs.  They probably go home after a night of rioting, eat and sleep, and go back out the next night.

[Joe Republic]

"Honey, I'm home!  Awful day at the riot today.  Our supervisor said our daily rioting quota has been upped."

"Oh well, dear.  I've made you your favorite; snails and wine."

[dazzleman]

"Honey, I'm home!  Awful day at the riot today.  Our supervisor said our daily rioting quota has been upped."

"Oh well, dear.  I've made you your favorite; snails and wine."

It has occurred to me that what France is facing is far worse than the threat of a limited number of terrorists sneaking into the country illegal to perform terrorist acts.

France is facing a broad-based insurrection involving a significant portion of its population who are French citizens.  That is a very scary prospect.

I can't say I sympathize with the insufferable French who go around hypocritically lecturing other people about their problems when they face far worse issues right on their own doorstep.  But the implications of this whole matter have to be frightening for much of Europe, and further into the future, the US too, if we don't get rid of multiculturalism and encourage a higher level of assimilation.

[Bono]

An idea for France

[Bono]

Eurabian Fights, By Nidra Poller

Of course the French have been known for shabby treatment of the people they colonized, including Africans, Arab-Muslim immigrants, and Black citizens of the overseas territories and departments. But this is only half the story. The colonies have been independent for fifty years. What have they done with their independence? If the French are so nasty, why are millions of Muslims pouring in from all sides, by all means, legal and illegal, forthright and stealthy, justified and unjustified? Why are some of those "immigrant" children and grandchildren sacking and burning schools instead of taking advantage of the education that is offered to them?

(...)

Decent law-abiding people who work, pay taxes, and raise their children properly have been begging the government to crack down on the Islamists and criminals who prey on them. If there is indeed 30 percent unemployment in the banlieues, it follows that 70 percent of the people are gainfully employed. High rents and low wages keep them in the housing projects. It is their cars that are burned, their public transportation that is interrupted, their safety that is jeopardized. Attacking bus drivers, raping women in cellars, hallways, and commuter trains, destroying public property, stealing purses and cell phones…this is nothing new. Young women are forced to wear hijab, one was burned alive for resisting advances, one was stoned to death, thousands are persecuted, confined to their homes, trapped in forced marriages. They beg, plead, and supplicate the French government to protect them. These are French women, born in France, and abandoned to de-facto Islamic rule in the country of their birth. It is their Islamist brothers, not French society, that reduce them to second class citizenship.

Nicolas Sarkozy is very popular in the banlieues. The hoodlums throw rocks at him, but law-abiding citizens bless his heart and if given the chance will vote for him in the next presidential elections. Unless the Chirac-Villepin duo succeeds in breaking his will. If his courage falters, if he eats crow and spits out sociological mush instead of following through on his promise to re-establish the rule of law, then the fusion ushered in by the architects of Eurabia will be accomplished by force in the meltdown of insurrection.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I wonder what Bono thinks about this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4434026.stm

France gets waaaaaay more than it's fair share of E.U funds anyway; just taking the f***ing money out of the f***ing CAP and f*** what the f***ing spoilt f***ing farmers f***ing say about it...

[CARLHAYDEN]

Most of eastern europe has gotten a little tired of the french trying to run everything.

With the change in the German government, support for the french (anti-American) position in the EU seems to have fallen.