Rioting in Paris

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If the cops or military started gunning down some of these scum as an example to the others this whole fiasco would end quickly.

Fraid not; things would end up getting even worse; it's got to that stage already.

[12th Doctor]

And the rioting continues, as our French supiriors prove that their way of dealing with the problems in the Muslim world are better than ours.  I wonder if they are going to start caring about radical Islam now?

[Storebought]

If the cops or military started gunning down some of these scum as an example to the others this whole fiasco would end quickly.

Fraid not; things would end up getting even worse; it's got to that stage already.

Yeah. Christ help, I mean, "christ help," the French if their military or gendarmerie uses live ammunition against Muslim poors in the cites, and then have the incident caught on video. France, then, will have joined Isreal and the US as the third head of the Great Satan.

[??????????]

If the cops or military started gunning down some of these scum as an example to the others this whole fiasco would end quickly.

Fraid not; things would end up getting even worse; it's got to that stage already.

Extreme situations often call for extreme measures. Incidents like this can NOT be tolerated by any civilized government.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Extreme situations often call for extreme measures. Incidents like this can NOT be tolerated by any civilized government.

Well, the whole thing could have been prevented before it started pretty easily (actually policing the area would maybe have been a good idea)... and it could have been controlled very easily early on as well. If this had been in almost any other western country it would have been...

[Middle-aged Europe]

This is exactly the kind of thing that will Fascism back to Europe.  There have some reports of rioting in Germany.  Lewis, any thing there?

Cars set afire in Berlin and Bremen

Well, I'm not Lewis, but you won't hinder me to answer it anyway.

The incidents in Germany didn't even remotely have the magnitude of the events in France. In Paris and the other cities literally thousands of cars were set on fire. As the article states, five cars were burned in Berlin, and three in Bremen. That's like comparing a tsunami with a ripple on the water. I hope it stays on that level.

The general opinion in Germany is something like "this could happen here in ten or fifteen years if we don't undertake greater efforts to integrate (juvenile) immigrants into society". I think a main difference to France is that we don't have such numerous public housing-style suburbs where the immigrants were practically exiled and nobody ever bothered about them anymore.

[Middle-aged Europe]

An article on how the major German newspapers are judging the riots:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,383634,00.html

[??????????]

Congrats on a thousand posts Scorpio!

[Middle-aged Europe]

Congrats on a thousand posts Scorpio!

*looks astonished* Hey, you're right. Thanks.

[??????????]

Congrats on a thousand posts Scorpio!

*looks astonished* Hey, you're right. Thanks.

I like your old name "Old Europe". Lets hope Old Europe comes back into rebirth sooner rather then later.

[afleitch]

Isn't it ironic that the rioting in France has been blamed on 'forcing' them to become 'French' and disregard their faith, culture etc, but in the UK whenever tensions rise we are told that people are not British enough! You're damned if you do and dammed if you don't.

[Beet]

Wow, the 11th night. I don't see any possible reason for such actions. Perhaps Maastricht can enlighten us.

Everything has spiralled out of control. This could have been over after a couple of days if the government had done what any half competent government would have done.
I suppose this is a good example of what can happen if things are just bottled up so to speak; this was all going to happen eventually and maybe it would have been better if it had happend 20,15,10 years ago rather than now.

Its easy to say now it was inevitable, but are you saying it's inevitable in the U.K.? Germany? Netherlands?

Although, States with a French Democrat avatar, that alone is worth the burning of 1000 cars to see... but not the recent fatality.

Which brings up an interesting point. In the U.S., a 3-day riot will generate somewhere around 40 fatalities, whereas this riot, in the first 11 days took only one fatality. Which brings up some interesting differences between the two experiences.

[AkSaber]

This is insane!! 12 days of rioting, and Chirac just now imposes a cerfew. And he still hasn't dispatched the military!! What a loon!!!!

[2952-0-0]

From a blog:

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[??????????]

Wow, the 11th night. I don't see any possible reason for such actions. Perhaps Maastricht can enlighten us.

Everything has spiralled out of control. This could have been over after a couple of days if the government had done what any half competent government would have done.
I suppose this is a good example of what can happen if things are just bottled up so to speak; this was all going to happen eventually and maybe it would have been better if it had happend 20,15,10 years ago rather than now.

Its easy to say now it was inevitable, but are you saying it's inevitable in the U.K.? Germany? Netherlands?

Although, States with a French Democrat avatar, that alone is worth the burning of 1000 cars to see... but not the recent fatality.

Which brings up an interesting point. In the U.S., a 3-day riot will generate somewhere around 40 fatalities, whereas this riot, in the first 11 days took only one fatality. Which brings up some interesting differences between the two experiences.

The difference is that in the USA law enforcement would have had this situation contained within those 3 days you mentioned and if it started to spread the cops would start busting heads to get the scum bags into order.

[Bono]

I was wondering how long it would take...

"J'estime qu'il s'agit d'une opération planifiée avec la participation des services spéciaux des Etats-Unis qui veulent mettre à genoux l'Europe devenue plus solide et en même temps détruire l'Union européenne."

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Its easy to say now it was inevitable

True, but I thought that before the riots. Been thinking something like this would happen for ages.

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No; the situation here is very different. There were some (fairly small in retrospect) riots in 2001 in the old mill towns, but the causes and extent were very different to what we're seeing in France (basically; mutual fear between the whites and the asians (largely Kashmiri) and frustration on the part of the younger asians at the slow pace of integration) and things up there have calmed down a lot.
There was also some trouble in west Birmingham (the Lozells area) a few weeks ago (between West Indians/Africans and Asians) but that's totally different again (the situtation there was seriously bizarre) and has been dying down.
Now, we could have had Paris-style riots if the racist LibDem administration in Tower Hamlets hadn't been booted out of office in the early '90's. We could still see some serious problems there (the Bangladeshis started to segregate themselves off in the early '90's and have continuted to do so) as we all saw during the election and I'm still a little worried about the situation there.
What you have to remember is that in the eastern suburbs of Paris you have riots on the scale of most of the 2001 mill town riots every week, but they've become routine, the police don't do anything to stop them and the media don't report on them.

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Not as clued up as to the situation in Germany, but see what Old Europe wrote

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Ah. Well... that would seem possible...

[Michael Z]

Isn't it ironic that the rioting in France has been blamed on 'forcing' them to become 'French' and disregard their faith, culture etc, but in the UK whenever tensions rise we are told that people are not British enough! You're damned if you do and dammed if you don't.

I think it's a question of finding the right balance. From what I can gather, the problem mainly stems from minorities being "ghettoised", as Trevor Phillips put it; that is to say ethnic minorities being pushed into a position where they are rarely, if ever, in contact with other groups. That's the sort of background the London bombers came from (I doubt any of them even knew any English people), and in fact is what describes a lot of communities in northern England, where we have seen turmoil in the past. This is also what has sparked part of the problem in France: no integration, just an attitude of "let's shove the darkies off to the estates where they cannot bother us, thankyouverymuch". That's not a uniquely French problem, it applies to most of Europe.

One thing we, ie. Europe, can learn from America (and I think Britain already has to a degree) is that it's not just enough to integrate immigrants on a cultural level - we also need to integrate them economically. Of course, that would only be part of the solution, but I think it would go some way towards helping it.

What's ironic is that, just a few months ago, a French journalist wrote a lengthy article in the Guardian, criticising the British model (or, rather, the London model) and hailing the French model as the way forward.

[MarkDel]

Michael,

You're partially right, but the plain truth is that not only has Europe failed to assimilate immigrants on a economic level, but they have also failed on a cultural level despite their well-intentioned, feel-good rhetoric. The whole "multi-cultural" model merely creates a society of large groups of individuals who have no connection to each other. In France, which has failed far worse than most European nations, the Socialist Welfare state combined with "respect" for diversity creates a short term "good feeling" among the dominant class, but it has proven a prescription for long term disaster.

[The Duke]

Michael,

You're partially right, but the plain truth is that not only has Europe failed to assimilate immigrants on a economic level, but they have also failed on a cultural level despite their well-intentioned, feel-good rhetoric. The whole "multi-cultural" model merely creates a society of large groups of individuals who have no connection to each other. In France, which has failed far worse than most European nations, the Socialist Welfare state combined with "respect" for diversity creates a short term "good feeling" among the dominant class, but it has proven a prescription for long term disaster.

Correct.  Thankfully, America has not been  taken over by that attitude, and not coincidentally we have the world's most peaceful Muslims.

It should also be said that America's nature (based on ideas) makes it easier to assimilate people than Europe's nature (based on geography and history).  Any idiot can become American, just learn English, eat a hot dog, go to a baseball game, and learn to like cowboy movies.  You have to be born French, or German, or Italian because European identity is historically rooted in ethnic identity much more than identity in America.

[Democratic Hawk]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

[afleitch]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

Agreed.

[John Dibble]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

Agreed.

Also agreed. There's little pressure to assimilate or be diverse, so immigrants tend to assimilate or not assimilate to whatever level they are comfortable with(and their kids are generally assimilated fully after a couple of generations).

[freek]

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Ah. Well... that would seem possible...

Though not on a "French" scale. However, under the Moroccan population there are some negative sentiments. They feel themselves to be the pariahs of Dutch society.

The last few years there have been some smaller riots in Holland, the most famous ones in Den Bosch (twice) and Groningen. The difference with the French riots: it was white thrash. There were riots in Den Bosch because a resident of a "socially weak" quarter was killed by the police in 2001 and because another resident of the same quarter confessed on television that he had an incestuous relationship with his daughter in 2004. The last riots were at first directed at this man and the next few days at the police.

In Groningen were riots on New Year's Eve 1997-8, because a SP-member of the provincial parliament who lived in a quarter comparable to the one in Den Bosch criticized his quarter on TV. His house was demolished, and it took hours before the police reacted. It was completely escalated at that moment. The mayor had to resign because of this incident.

[Akno21]

Some say that multiculturalism doesn't work, this is evidence that French uniformity doesn't work either. The problem for most societies, which are not ethnically homogenous, is where do you get the balance right between accommodation and assimilation

The USA is diverse yet it does have a strong 'American' identity

Dave

Agreed.

I agree. There is somewhat of an 'American identity', but it seems to be based on relatively superficial leisure-time activities that are uniquely American. In the deeper cultural layer, in terms of who we actually are at a family level, there is much less American-blood so to speak, and that is where the diversity kicks in. Americans actually live their lives very similarly to each other I'd bet, in comparison with European nations, but are less likely to share deeper cultural bonds that go back centuries.