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Author Topic: Yellow Vests resurgence in France, Macron reeling  (Read 2273 times)
1776
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« on: January 06, 2019, 05:17:47 pm »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-protests-macron/frances-macron-reeling-as-tough-stance-against-yellow-vests-backfires-idUSKCN1P00KG
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 07:48:02 pm »

I'm starting to get the feeling Macron won't survive as President much longer...
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thr33_
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 12:39:57 am »

Major FFs, hope the protests expand in Canada and elsewhere.
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 01:03:52 am »

I'm starting to get the feeling Macron won't survive as President much longer...

He will, because the French Constitution is basically designed to make the President irremovable both formally and in terms of practical incentives, but he might be on his way to turning into a lame duck faster than even Flamby did (even after his defeat at the European elections he wasn't quite toast). Of course, he still has a chance to avoid this fate, but time is running out.
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 02:35:51 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!
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1776
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 03:02:32 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!

LOL. You sound awfully fascist here. edit: I don't understand sarcasm and hyperbole apparently

We could learn a lot from the French and their refusal to passively accept globalist neoliberalism rammed down their throats. Furthermore, it's not a "leftist" movement, it's a leaderless movement with large support on both left and right. It started out as essentially a modern peasants' revolt against "benevolent" fuel taxes that hurt the rural poor, and has grown into a broader protest of the Macronistas' nihilistic and sociopathic worldview. The French will do almost anything to defend their country, culture, and way of life, and I applaud them for that.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 07:17:01 pm by Mike Lee 2024 »Logged
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 04:09:56 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!

I mean, I'm generally left wing economically and this is very very exaggerated but there's a bit of truth in here.

Let Macron do his reforms, and if he fails then take him out. It's not as if LREM is an established party (unlike PS) so he has nothing to lose even if he goes down in flames with a 1% approval rating. (other than risking president Le Pen or president Melenchon but that's already a risk even if he were to cave on every yellow vests demand)

He can cave in and waste his 5 year term, or try to be French Thatcher which may succeed or may fail (remember Thatcher was unpopular until  the Falklands war)

Also, as a sidenote, I'd say France need some sort of "midterms" to put a check on the president's generally unchecked power.
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 05:19:39 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!

LOL. You sound awfully fascist here.

We could learn a lot from the French and their refusal to passively accept globalist neoliberalism rammed down their throats. Furthermore, it's not a "leftist" movement, it's a leaderless movement with large support on both left and right. It started out as essentially a modern peasants' revolt against "benevolent" fuel taxes that hurt the rural poor, and has grown into a broader protest of the Macronistas' nihilistic and sociopathic worldview. The French will do almost anything to defend their country, culture, and way of life, and I applaud them for that.

I guess I'll forgive you for thinking all of my posts are 100% serious considering you're new here. Yes, it's not a leftist movement and I'm glad you recognize it has broad support on both the right and the left since certain American posters seem to think it's the French Tea Party or so. I'm just triggering people Tongue.

The last part is dead serious though. The yellow vests started as a protest movement against the fuel tax hike (a move which I opposed btw), but now they're just out to get rid of Macron. I still view the economy as the main French problem. France is sorely overtaxed and overregulated, the combination of their very generous welfare benefits and very high labour taxes just doesn't offer enough incentives to work or to hire. Their labour market regulations make their labour market an inert and inefficient monster and government spending as a % of GDP is the highest in the world. Above all France needs someone who is willing to tackle the leviathan that is the French welfare state. I don't actually think Macron is perfect (would have voted Fillon in 2017 if I were French), but he's their best hope.

Like I said before, I opposed the fuel tax hike and I'd sympathize with the protestors if it only was about the fuel tax hike or certain regressive taxes. But it's morphed into something bigger, it's a complete revolt against Macron's economic project (including the deregulations and his other tax cuts). It might be a ''peasants' revolt'', but whatever the yellow vests want won't help France. I'm going to assume their ''list of demands'' was made up by a lone wolf since it was literally insane (and probably only discredited the movement), but I strongly doubt whether we'll hear the yellow vests about the measures that France truly needs.

Macron actually is surprisingly good on immigration. I was somewhat cautious in 2017, but after his immigration law (sure, it didn't go that far, but he did make it easier to detain and deport illegal immigrants) I've fully embraced him. Macron is the legitimate president and he has a strong majority in parliament, there is no reason why he shouldn't use it.

The ''let the brave French police intervene'' part also wasn't entirely serious, but it's ironic that the people who normally consider themselves ''pro-police'' now are outraged about ''police violence''. I'm sure most yellow vests are relatively peaceful, but large parts of the protests were hijacked by the same career thugs who hijack every French protest. Lots of shops have been destroyed, cars have been burned and some people died in these protests.

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!

I mean, I'm generally left wing economically and this is very very exaggerated but there's a bit of truth in here.

Let Macron do his reforms, and if he fails then take him out. It's not as if LREM is an established party (unlike PS) so he has nothing to lose even if he goes down in flames with a 1% approval rating. (other than risking president Le Pen or president Melenchon but that's already a risk even if he were to cave on every yellow vests demand)

He can cave in and waste his 5 year term, or try to be French Thatcher which may succeed or may fail (remember Thatcher was unpopular until  the Falklands war)

Also, as a sidenote, I'd say France need some sort of "midterms" to put a check on the president's generally unchecked power.

You know my posting style Tongue.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 05:30:57 pm by mvd10 »Logged
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2019, 07:15:39 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!



Don't kid yourself. Plenty of right wing thugs in that lot. Wouldn't surprise me if the violence was down solely to the right. The cause of the 'yellow vests' has reached the UK and is populated in its entirety by racist brexit supporters who have taken to publicly hounding politicians and commentators they disagree with - even ones who support Brexit (but not their idea of brexit)
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2019, 07:19:31 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!



Don't kid yourself. Plenty of right wing thugs in that lot. Wouldn't surprise me if the violence was down solely to the right. The cause of the 'yellow vests' has reached the UK and is populated in its entirety by racist brexit supporters who have taken to publicly hounding politicians and commentators they disagree with - even ones who support Brexit (but not their idea of brexit)

Tbh the violence mainly is down to the career thugs who've hijacked every single French protest ever.
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2019, 10:34:08 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!
This, but unironically.

Anyways, the yellow-vesters are the incarnation of a new, and extremely dangerous form of populism--the agendaless, anti-technocracy, anti-competence sort pioneered by M5S.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2019, 06:16:01 am »

I wouldn't say it's "new" - it's actually at least as old as French democracy itself (and possibly older). It's also an extremely French movement, which is why the yellow vests have basically flopped or been exclusively a preserve of partisan cranks outtside of France and francophone Belgium.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 06:30:45 am »

I hope Macron recovers, but will his party continue to support his agenda in Parliament?
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 04:37:03 pm »

Macron already gave them too much and the violent leftist thugs still are protesting. He should just take back what he gave and let the brave French police intervene in order to teach them a good lesson. Law and order!

For 40 years thugs have been sabotaging attempts to make France a normally functioning nation (isn't that treason?) and every time the president cucked (and lost reelection/legislative majority anyway). It's clear that giving in to the protestors won't work. All French presidents did that and we saw how that ended. If Macron gives in his approval rating will be 30% instead of 25% and he'll lose reelection anyway. Macron should just ram through his economic agenda (whatever the f**k these violent thugs will do) and see what happens. The people will never love him anyway, but if unemployment drops below 8% by 2022 they'll give him a second term. If he fails, alas. As if it matters whether you lose reelection with a 80% disapproval rating or a 65% disapproval rating.

But seriously, the situation in France really is a vicious circle. President tries something to liberalize the economy, people protest, president gives in, president loses some elections because the economy still is sh**t, enter new president/prime minister. The choice is Macron's now. Either he gives in, keeps the wheel spinning and leaves office in 2022/2027 with his reputation somewhat intact and France still in tatters or he can make a shot at breaking the wheel and be a truly great president (with the risk that it horribly backfires). One way or another, it has to come to a confrontation. If it doesn't happen now it'll happen in 5 or 10 years anyway. Macron can choose whether he wants to be Edward Heath or Margaret Thatcher. Let this be Macron's ''the lady's not for turning'' moment!

This but unironically Smiley
100% agree.
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 05:17:39 pm »

ITT: Lots of foreigners speaking very confidently about a country they've presumably never lived in.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 07:08:07 am »

ITT: Lots of foreigners speaking very confidently about a country they've presumably never lived in.

What else is atlas for? Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 09:32:20 am »

So sad that so many have mobilized to prevent Macron from Making France Great Again. Cry
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:56 pm »

Good to see the French people keeping up the good fight to protect their livelihoods. Sad that such a movement would be impossible to implement here in the same light as this great struggle.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 03:33:21 pm »

I don't doubt that there are a lot of hardworking French people, but collectively they seem to be a bunch of incredibly entitled whiners.

The French economy has been struggling for years, and might well now be vying with Italy to be the 'sick man of Europe.'
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2019, 05:43:28 pm »

ITT: Lots of foreigners speaking very confidently about a country they've presumably never lived in.

What else is atlas for? Smiley

Fair point.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 05:47:56 pm »

There's also the broader issue of trying to find moralistic/pseudo-anthropological explanations for people's political behavior, something that's fallen out of flavor in serious political science since the turn of the 20th century but that's apparently still popular among lazy pundits and people who like to ape lazy pundits.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 06:04:59 pm »

There's also the broader issue of trying to find moralistic/pseudo-anthropological explanations for people's political behavior, something that's fallen out of flavor in serious political science since the turn of the 20th century but that's apparently still popular among lazy pundits and people who like to ape lazy pundits.

you mean... en tout cas, les frouzes sont tous des rleurs... isn't great political analysis? Huh
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2019, 06:13:21 pm »

There's also the broader issue of trying to find moralistic/pseudo-anthropological explanations for people's political behavior, something that's fallen out of flavor in serious political science since the turn of the 20th century but that's apparently still popular among lazy pundits and people who like to ape lazy pundits.

You can speak in riddles all you want, but it will only play for a select audience (mind you, I'm not actually following this story).
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2019, 06:25:55 pm »

There's also the broader issue of trying to find moralistic/pseudo-anthropological explanations for people's political behavior, something that's fallen out of flavor in serious political science since the turn of the 20th century but that's apparently still popular among lazy pundits and people who like to ape lazy pundits.

I'm sure it's no lazier than the French people collectively.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 07:13:26 pm »

There's also the broader issue of trying to find moralistic/pseudo-anthropological explanations for people's political behavior, something that's fallen out of flavor in serious political science since the turn of the 20th century but that's apparently still popular among lazy pundits and people who like to ape lazy pundits.

You can speak in riddles all you want, but it will only play for a select audience (mind you, I'm not actually following this story).

I thought what I meant was obvious from context. At least, the people it was targeted at seem to have gotten my point all right (see above).
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