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| | |-+  Yellow Vests resurgence in France, Macron reeling
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Question: Opinion of the Yellow Vests protesters
FF   -20 (51.3%)
HP   -19 (48.7%)
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Total Voters: 39

Author Topic: Yellow Vests resurgence in France, Macron reeling  (Read 2278 times)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2019, 03:17:37 pm »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2019, 03:31:49 pm »

Although one point worth noting is that the whole Périurbain explanationbehind the gilets janues protests has been somewhat controversial in its own right. Certainly, Guilluy's France périphérique is not without its critics, and there are of course, a number of very well heeled exurban towns the "périurbain choisi" that are highly desirable, and often very close to down market identikit lotissements. The town of Chantilly, in the otherwise unfashionable Oise is a good example.

The other point that it is worth remembering is that the main centres where the protests have been the biggest, relatively speaking, is along the diagonale du vide - the sparsely inhabited region stretching from the Basque Country to the Ardennes. Which is rural, rather than périurbain, and where the stories of dismal public transport, industrial decline, closing hospitals/schools; and above all, the need to drive long distances between school/work/home on a daily basis applies even more so than in the Seine-et-Marne or northern Isère or wherever.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2019, 04:49:29 pm »

Uhh. There are definitely legitimate grievances, especially in France, and on the one hand I really respect the yellow vests for expressing them and not backing down even though the government is using insane measures to crack down on them (which of course the media do not report on - too busy with the protests in Hungary, much less significant and to which the government has responded much more peacefully - and democratically). But on the other hand it is most unfortunate that at this point the core of the protesters seems to have been infiltrated by people with very dubious views.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 04:53:00 pm by DavidB. »Logged
God-Empress Brie Larson
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2019, 09:21:27 pm »

It's painfully obvious that the Yellow Vests' grievances are largely based on regional inequalities between the Parisians who control every aspect of French life and the comparatively immiserated inhabitants of the rest of the country, but both rational choice theorists and the woketariat see the idea of talking seriously about regional inequality as a threat so I'm not surprised it's not being discussed in this thread.

If that were true, agriculture subsidies in France wouldn't have gone on for as long as they have.

In order for the existence of agriculture subsidies to be a sufficient counterargument, you have to also be willing to say that there's no regional inequality in the United States.

1.The agriculture subsidies show the Parisians don't control 'every aspect of French life'

2.While regional inequalities exist in the United States, there is no dominant region in the U.S (despite the nonsense about the 'coastal elites') so, it's not necessarily the case that regional inequalities require a single dominant region.

I admit to some hyperbole but it's an accepted fact that the organizational philosophy of the French state has been with varying intensity centralist since the Revolution and the levers of power in France are almost all, and for a long time have almost all been, in the hands of people mostly familiar with Paris and Parisian issues (even if they nominally represent other places in the National Assembly or whatever). Do you deny this?
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136or142
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2019, 11:14:04 pm »

It's painfully obvious that the Yellow Vests' grievances are largely based on regional inequalities between the Parisians who control every aspect of French life and the comparatively immiserated inhabitants of the rest of the country, but both rational choice theorists and the woketariat see the idea of talking seriously about regional inequality as a threat so I'm not surprised it's not being discussed in this thread.

If that were true, agriculture subsidies in France wouldn't have gone on for as long as they have.

In order for the existence of agriculture subsidies to be a sufficient counterargument, you have to also be willing to say that there's no regional inequality in the United States.

1.The agriculture subsidies show the Parisians don't control 'every aspect of French life'

2.While regional inequalities exist in the United States, there is no dominant region in the U.S (despite the nonsense about the 'coastal elites') so, it's not necessarily the case that regional inequalities require a single dominant region.

I admit to some hyperbole but it's an accepted fact that the organizational philosophy of the French state has been with varying intensity centralist since the Revolution and the levers of power in France are almost all, and for a long time have almost all been, in the hands of people mostly familiar with Paris and Parisian issues (even if they nominally represent other places in the National Assembly or whatever). Do you deny this?

No, but the issue to me, which you did not state, is whether Paris has caused this inequality or not through any dominance of the national discussion or whether the overall failed policies of trying to reduce insecurity: difficulty of laying off people, agricultural subsidies are primarily responsible.
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God-Empress Brie Larson
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« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2019, 02:31:37 am »

It's painfully obvious that the Yellow Vests' grievances are largely based on regional inequalities between the Parisians who control every aspect of French life and the comparatively immiserated inhabitants of the rest of the country, but both rational choice theorists and the woketariat see the idea of talking seriously about regional inequality as a threat so I'm not surprised it's not being discussed in this thread.

If that were true, agriculture subsidies in France wouldn't have gone on for as long as they have.

In order for the existence of agriculture subsidies to be a sufficient counterargument, you have to also be willing to say that there's no regional inequality in the United States.

1.The agriculture subsidies show the Parisians don't control 'every aspect of French life'

2.While regional inequalities exist in the United States, there is no dominant region in the U.S (despite the nonsense about the 'coastal elites') so, it's not necessarily the case that regional inequalities require a single dominant region.

I admit to some hyperbole but it's an accepted fact that the organizational philosophy of the French state has been with varying intensity centralist since the Revolution and the levers of power in France are almost all, and for a long time have almost all been, in the hands of people mostly familiar with Paris and Parisian issues (even if they nominally represent other places in the National Assembly or whatever). Do you deny this?

No, but the issue to me, which you did not state, is whether Paris has caused this inequality or not through any dominance of the national discussion or whether the overall failed policies of trying to reduce insecurity: difficulty of laying off people, agricultural subsidies are primarily responsible.

I don't know enough about France to say for sure, although I can't help but suspect that neoliberal reforms would result in the same runaway wealth concentration in metropolitan areas and brain drain from the countryside and regional cities in France that they've resulted in in the United States, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere. What I was commenting on was the fact that, for a forum ostensibly devoted to discussing political geography, the geographical and demographic dimension of what's going on in France was going strangely unremarked-on.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 02:37:14 am by Trounce-'em Theresa »Logged
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« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2019, 02:37:58 am »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.

Can you elaborate on that? I know very little about British urban planning, and if they got something right that the rest of Europe didn't that definitely deserves to be highlighted.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2019, 03:16:18 am »

Some times I just a feeling that France is impossible to govern. Macron is on track to be another one-termer and, god forbid, be succeeded by LePen.
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tack50
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« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2019, 10:51:55 am »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.

Can you elaborate on that? I know very little about British urban planning, and if they got something right that the rest of Europe didn't that definitely deserves to be highlighted.

Same here. Especially considering that at least according to Eurostat, British urban planning should be worse than French urban planning, not better; at keast if you are optimizing for density and compact cities

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Housing_statistics#Type_of_dwelling

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The UK has literally the 2nd lowest flat population in the EU while France is only marginally below the EU average. It does have a lot of semi-detached houses though, not just compared to France but to most of Europe
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2019, 08:46:44 am »

Although one point worth noting is that the whole Périurbain explanationbehind the gilets janues protests has been somewhat controversial in its own right. Certainly, Guilluy's France périphérique is not without its critics, and there are of course, a number of very well heeled exurban towns the "périurbain choisi" that are highly desirable, and often very close to down market identikit lotissements. The town of Chantilly, in the otherwise unfashionable Oise is a good example.

The other point that it is worth remembering is that the main centres where the protests have been the biggest, relatively speaking, is along the diagonale du vide - the sparsely inhabited region stretching from the Basque Country to the Ardennes. Which is rural, rather than périurbain, and where the stories of dismal public transport, industrial decline, closing hospitals/schools; and above all, the need to drive long distances between school/work/home on a daily basis applies even more so than in the Seine-et-Marne or northern Isère or wherever.

As a sole and isolated explanation it does not work, this is true. But then it's pretty clear that there is no singular explanation for this phenomenon, that it is the result of a combination of factors; one of which is traditional rural discontent, another is this new issue. After all, at its peak this movement had the backing of three quarters of the electorate.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2019, 08:57:18 am »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.

Can you elaborate on that? I know very little about British urban planning, and if they got something right that the rest of Europe didn't that definitely deserves to be highlighted.

State control of land use and planning, incorporating very strict development controls around major conurbations (the 'Green Belt' policy). An explicitly Socialist policy of the Attlee government rooted in the Garden Cities movement of the early 20th century that has been retained through everything because the framework is very efficient and the scales are so heavily tilted in favour of Whitehall and ministerial power, that no government (no matter its other political stances) has ever been remotely tempted to give it up.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2019, 09:07:01 am »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.

Lewis Silkin.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2019, 08:00:03 pm »

The outskirts of some European cities make me really glad about whoever came up with Green Belts over in this country.

Can you elaborate on that? I know very little about British urban planning, and if they got something right that the rest of Europe didn't that definitely deserves to be highlighted.

State control of land use and planning, incorporating very strict development controls around major conurbations (the 'Green Belt' policy). An explicitly Socialist policy of the Attlee government rooted in the Garden Cities movement of the early 20th century that has been retained through everything because the framework is very efficient and the scales are so heavily tilted in favour of Whitehall and ministerial power, that no government (no matter its other political stances) has ever been remotely tempted to give it up.

This does sound like a very good policy. I'm glad it survived so long through the post-Thatcher age.
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2019, 03:17:45 pm »

   PM Phillipe says the referendum idea of the Yellow Vests is a good idea in principle.  It would be amazing if both Italy and France made moves toward expanding direct democracy in the same year.
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