Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 10, 2019, 02:53:50 pm
News: 2020 Gubernatorial Predictions are now active.

  Atlas Forum
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Kutasoff Hedzoff)
  Why is Corbyn still leading Labour?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Why is Corbyn still leading Labour?  (Read 2187 times)
MillennialModerate
MillennialMAModerate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 976
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: January 18, 2019, 05:19:59 am »

Not sure if Iíll get criticized for making a whole new topic on this conversation but it seems to me like it could make for a decent debate. Anyway: Why in the hell is Jermey Crobyn still Labour Leader?

With all the tremendous incompetence that the Toris have shown and the absolute butcher job theyíve done with the Brexit situation - it seems to me if Labour had a different leader they wouldíve won the last election (possibly) and chances of winning that No Confidence would be way higher IMO.

(although I found goves speech funny talking about why JC shouldnít be Prime Minister, essentially admitting that if an election was called the people would support Labour)

So isnít it more important that they appear electable to the British people ... theyíll end up in a
Thatcher/Major era drought if they donít right the wrongs.
Logged
dead0man
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 35,098
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 05:30:11 am »

The peope in Labour don't think hating Jews is that big of a deal.
Logged
DaWN
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 953
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 06:10:14 am »

Because he could kill a baby on live TV and the Labour membersip / Twitter socialists would still believe him the second coming of Christ. They are the overwhelming majority in the Labour party now. Corbyn leads Labour until he dies or resigns of his own accord, no matter how useless he is, no matter how little he's holding the government to account, he'll ALWAYS be the messiah to the membership.

A much more interesting question is 'Why is he still leader of the opposition?' to which the answer is 'the delusional Labour moderates being convinced the party is still theirs at heart when it isn't anymore and never will be again, and thus not taking one of the eighteen or nineteen different opportunities they had to split into a new party, and now it's too late.'
Logged
Zaybay
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,645
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.25, S: -6.50

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2019, 06:32:13 am »
« Edited: January 18, 2019, 08:01:25 am by Senator Zaybay »

The Reason: Because of 2017.

Simply put, Corbyn was on rather thin ice before the election, and was seen as the figure to lead Labour's downfall. He was going to lose the election by 20 points, he was going to give the Tories a strong hand in government, he was going to-

and then, it happened. Labour took back seats, and forced The Tories into a hung parliament.

Now, it should be noted, that it wasnt really Labour itself that hated him, but his MPs(this was mostly due to ideological differences). But with his victory in the 2017 election, many of his critics were silenced. The Labour party itself became infatuated with him, and his grassroots, Momentum, has been able to seize control of most city councils, and Labor Parties.

So, the answer to the question. Why is he still the leader? Because he won. Because he has total control of the party. Because he can. I'd like to ask why, after every single failure produced by the Tory Government, that they dont just get rid of Theresa May. Because they cant.

Also, a different Labour Leader would lead to no difference, lets all be honest. The No-Confidence vote wasnt going to be won, ever, as it was a Partyline vote. The whole reason they didnt lose the election of 2017 can be heavily attributed to Tory incompetence and Corbyn. They are leading right now in party polling, with Corbyn as its head.

Basically, the party membership loves Corbyn, the MPs that dont are afraid to speak out, and the impetus to get rid of him isnt there, as hes considered a rather good opposition leader and staved off complete disaster in 2017.
Logged
Representative Thumb21
thumb21
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,063
Cyprus


Political Matrix
E: -4.65, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 08:30:08 am »
« Edited: January 18, 2019, 08:33:27 am by thumb21 »

As previous posters have pointed out, Corbyn is VERY popular among Labour members, many very fanatical in their support, which is why they haven't got rid of him, and in fact his control over the party has increased. He was significantly emboldened the 2017 election when he turned a 20 point loss into a 2 point loss.

As for the idea that Labour would be doing better if not for Corbyn, the data doesn't agree. Most other candidates wouldn't have the same populist appeal as Corbyn. There aren't many viable candidates who could replace him, let alone defeat the Tories.



Note: This poll was taken mid-surge, so Corbyn's numbers are higher now.
Logged
Justice Blair
Blair2015
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,447
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 02:48:35 pm »

Eh this thread is showing some of the common misconceptions about JC- labour members donít see him as the messiah, itís just that a vocal vanguard (thatís simply more well organised than progress) defend him.

Heís still Leader because thereís no-one in the PLP who A.) wants to get rid of him B.) Can win 50% of the membership. There is no mechanism for the PLP to get rid of him: and thereís no way theyíre going to win with whoever theyíd send over the trenches

The Labour Party never gets rid of itís leaders; and they generally like there leaders. Itís still remarkable that Smith was able to get 193K members (iirc there were that many members in Labour in the mid 00s) to vote for him in the 2016 election.

Logged
Mangez des pommes !
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 50,674
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 08:42:48 pm »

Because Labour voters like him. It's not rocket science.

Look, I'm deeply conflicted on the guy myself, but the establishment dismisses his political talent at its own peril.
Logged
Devout Centrist
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,395
United States


Political Matrix
E: -99.99, S: -99.99

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 09:04:11 pm »

There was no way the Conservatives were going to lose the confidence vote this week. They have a confidence and supply deal with the DUP. Any Tory that broke ranks would have been expelled from the Party!

Secondly, Corbynís popularity has very much depended on the time and circumstance. He is a solid campaigner, and his popularity tends to swing upward during election season. Now itís sagged quite a bit, but let me leave you with a little historical insight: Labor enjoyed massive leads over the Tory Party in 1990 and 1991. Thatcherís exit as Prime Minister caused the Conservatives to gain a bit of ground, but they still trailed overall.

Then came the General Election. The exit poll projected Labour to be the largest party. Instead, the Tories secured a majority of 22. I ask you, did any of those double digit leads actually mean anything?
Logged
Mangez des pommes !
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 50,674
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 01:25:19 am »

There was no way the Conservatives were going to lose the confidence vote this week. They have a confidence and supply deal with the DUP. Any Tory that broke ranks would have been expelled from the Party!

Secondly, Corbynís popularity has very much depended on the time and circumstance. He is a solid campaigner, and his popularity tends to swing upward during election season. Now itís sagged quite a bit, but let me leave you with a little historical insight: Labor enjoyed massive leads over the Tory Party in 1990 and 1991. Thatcherís exit as Prime Minister caused the Conservatives to gain a bit of ground, but they still trailed overall.

Then came the General Election. The exit poll projected Labour to be the largest party. Instead, the Tories secured a majority of 22. I ask you, did any of those double digit leads actually mean anything?

I'm not usually an "ignore all the polls" guy, but British polls are sh*t. So no, obviously Labour's current leads don't mean very much.
Logged
Elect Bloomberg, Crush Corbyn
Ray Goldfield
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,333


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 01:41:43 pm »

Because Labour voters like him. It's not rocket science.

Look, I'm deeply conflicted on the guy myself, but the establishment dismisses his political talent at its own peril.

He really is the left's Trump in every way, including his coarse populist appeal. But that always comes at the cost of independent voters.

I was genuinely scared he could take power for a while, but his embrace of Brexit and his unwillingness to help the cause of a second referendum is really going to hurt him in an election. He's not the clear alternative he needs to be anymore.
Logged
Statilius the Epicurean
Thersites
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,929
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 03:05:25 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?
Logged
Elect Bloomberg, Crush Corbyn
Ray Goldfield
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,333


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 03:08:21 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?

They're consistently trailing one of the most incompetent UK governments in history.
Logged
Big Abraham
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,301
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 03:21:53 pm »



How is this "consistently trailing"? They're essentially even (Tories maybe slightly ahead), and have been ahead at various points since the end of the last election. Seriously, I don't even like Labour all that much, but "consistently trailing" is just ridiculous
Logged
Cory Booker
olawakandi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 29,531
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.84, S: -0.17

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 03:48:53 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?

They're consistently trailing one of the most incompetent UK governments in history.

This is precisely why the no confidence vote failed, due to Tories feeling that Corbyn would be PM
Logged
Zaybay
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,645
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.25, S: -6.50

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2019, 08:26:04 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?

They're consistently trailing one of the most incompetent UK governments in history.

See Big Abraham's post
Logged
vileplume
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 262
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2019, 08:54:06 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?

They're consistently trailing one of the most incompetent UK governments in history.

See Big Abraham's post

Erm being 'even' with one of the most useless and divided governments in living memory isn't anything to write home about.

It's true that a Labour party lead by someone like Corbyn is not going to get anywhere near the leads Labour were getting in the polls in the mid 90s in the dying days of the Major government  because he's never going to appeal to disaffected dyed in the wool Tory voters in the way Blair could. However you would have thought they would at least be able to open up a consistent mid to high single digit lead against a government as bad as this one.

Obviously things could change when something is done re. Brexit whether that be no deal, a second referendum, article 50 extension etc. but for left leaning people it should be at least somewhat concerning that Labour hasn't broken through.

Logged
Big Abraham
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,301
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2019, 10:10:24 pm »

Because Labour are doing well in the polls under him?

They're consistently trailing one of the most incompetent UK governments in history.

See Big Abraham's post

Erm being 'even' with one of the most useless and divided governments in living memory isn't anything to write home about.

It's true that a Labour party lead by someone like Corbyn is not going to get anywhere near the leads Labour were getting in the polls in the mid 90s in the dying days of the Major government  because he's never going to appeal to disaffected dyed in the wool Tory voters in the way Blair could. However you would have thought they would at least be able to open up a consistent mid to high single digit lead against a government as bad as this one.

Obviously things could change when something is done re. Brexit whether that be no deal, a second referendum, article 50 extension etc. but for left leaning people it should be at least somewhat concerning that Labour hasn't broken through.



Well there are still going to be a large pool of loyal Tory voters either way, and British politics are no less divided than American politics are, so things are going to be relatively even at any particular moment. You also conveniently left out the parts of their polling where they had not insignificant gains compared to the Conservatives. But in all fairness, the current political climate might indicate their numbers should be higher, and the Tories are still (somewhat) managing to hold their own right now, probably due to still somewhat weak nationwide approval ratings for Corbyn. 
Logged
Pandaguineapig
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,589
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2019, 10:38:06 pm »

Because much of the modern left is ok with anti-Semitism as long as they're promised free stuff

What evidence do you have that Corbyn is an anti-Semite?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/13/year-denials-jeremy-corbyn-changed-story/
also the fact that he has invited holocaust deniers to parliament, endorsed politicans who have called for the eradication of Israel, and surrounded himself with anti-semites his entire career
Logged
Big Abraham
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,301
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2019, 11:16:59 pm »

Because much of the modern left is ok with anti-Semitism as long as they're promised free stuff

What evidence do you have that Corbyn is an anti-Semite?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/13/year-denials-jeremy-corbyn-changed-story/
also the fact that he has invited holocaust deniers to parliament, endorsed politicans who have called for the eradication of Israel, and surrounded himself with anti-semites his entire career


I'm not aware of him ever actually inviting Holocaust deniers to Parliament, nor do you list any names. The only incident that I am aware of is him and another Labour MP attending an event of a speaker who was later revealed to be a Holocaust denier, and Corbyn stated that had he known at the time he would not have attended. Regarding the wreath-laying controversy, he has no known connection with the terrorist group in question, and his mere attendance at a ceremony of this nature is not evidence enough that he himself is an anti-Semite, given that it doesn't actually entail an endorsement of the Munich attacks, and that the ceremony was not specifically devoted to that attack anyway.

Criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism, and whatever the extent of it may be in the Labour Party, your sources don't reveal much
Logged
Statilius the Epicurean
Thersites
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,929
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2019, 11:53:42 pm »
« Edited: January 20, 2019, 02:49:32 am by Statilius the Epicurean »

Erm being 'even' with one of the most useless and divided governments in living memory isn't anything to write home about.

It's useless and divided but 40% of the electorate will support the Tories as long as they say they are delivering Brexit. It's not an ordinary mid-parliament because the country is split down the middle on an incredibly contentious issue. Yvette Cooper or any other Labour leader imaginable wouldn't be able to convince Tory voters to switch no matter what they came up with. It's also difficult to imagine that the Lib Dems/Greens could be squeezed any further or gains made on the SNP.
Logged
Shadows
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,649
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2019, 01:06:46 am »

Because he is Labour's best hope & is an incredible leader turned a Labour collapse to the biggest Labour vote share gain since Atlee & a huge gain to seats & reduced the Tories to a hung parliament.

His record on economic, environmental justice etc is in a pedestal of sorts & in a time of global oligarchy & with the middle Class & Working class bring massacred, he is essentially the leading hope of creating an economy which works for everyone.

He also withstood the onslaught from the British Media & many from his own party & he is a phenomenal campaigner & has strong ties to the grassroots of the Labour party.
Logged
IceAgeComing
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,420
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 07:02:43 am »

It's useless and divided but 40% of the electorate will support the Tories as long as they say they are delivering Brexit. It's not an ordinary mid-parliament because the country is split down the middle on an incredibly contentious issue. Yvette Cooper or any other Labour leader imaginable wouldn't be able to convince Tory voters to switch no matter what they came up with. It's also difficult to imagine that the Lib Dems/Greens could be squeezed any further or gains made on the SNP.

This is fundamentally correct: you've got an issue that's incredibly divisive and which most people .  When you factor in that fundamentally (ignoring divisions in both parties and stuff that people don't really care about outside the bubble) nothing has yet really changed; we don't know what's going to happen with Brexit and similar issues, and so the polls have not shifted.  Add in the fact that you've seen polarisation behind two parties and that there isn't really an alternative force like the Lib Dems or UKIP for people to go to anymore and it should be expected that the two parties remain relatively close together.  The last election really shows how polling can shift through a campaign though!
Logged
Elect Bloomberg, Crush Corbyn
Ray Goldfield
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,333


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2019, 09:40:08 am »

Because much of the modern left is ok with anti-Semitism as long as they're promised free stuff

What evidence do you have that Corbyn is an anti-Semite?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/13/year-denials-jeremy-corbyn-changed-story/
also the fact that he has invited holocaust deniers to parliament, endorsed politicans who have called for the eradication of Israel, and surrounded himself with anti-semites his entire career


I'm not aware of him ever actually inviting Holocaust deniers to Parliament, nor do you list any names. The only incident that I am aware of is him and another Labour MP attending an event of a speaker who was later revealed to be a Holocaust denier, and Corbyn stated that had he known at the time he would not have attended. Regarding the wreath-laying controversy, he has no known connection with the terrorist group in question, and his mere attendance at a ceremony of this nature is not evidence enough that he himself is an anti-Semite, given that it doesn't actually entail an endorsement of the Munich attacks, and that the ceremony was not specifically devoted to that attack anyway.

Criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism, and whatever the extent of it may be in the Labour Party, your sources don't reveal much

Corbyn's well-documented, obsessive antisemitism is not ambiguous, nor is it a subject of debate. It's a key part of the party you choose to endorse. Either you endorse it, or you've simply decided it's an acceptable price to pay. Much like Trump's racism, there's no separating the two. Live with it.
Logged
DC Al Fine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12,879
Canada


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2019, 05:15:58 pm »

I think the better question is, why wouldn't he still be leader?

Is it normal for British parties to toss their opposition leaders who produced large gains last election and are currently tied with the government?

Of course he's going to get another kick at the can.
Logged
Big Abraham
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,301
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2019, 05:34:59 pm »

Because much of the modern left is ok with anti-Semitism as long as they're promised free stuff

What evidence do you have that Corbyn is an anti-Semite?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/13/year-denials-jeremy-corbyn-changed-story/
also the fact that he has invited holocaust deniers to parliament, endorsed politicans who have called for the eradication of Israel, and surrounded himself with anti-semites his entire career


I'm not aware of him ever actually inviting Holocaust deniers to Parliament, nor do you list any names. The only incident that I am aware of is him and another Labour MP attending an event of a speaker who was later revealed to be a Holocaust denier, and Corbyn stated that had he known at the time he would not have attended. Regarding the wreath-laying controversy, he has no known connection with the terrorist group in question, and his mere attendance at a ceremony of this nature is not evidence enough that he himself is an anti-Semite, given that it doesn't actually entail an endorsement of the Munich attacks, and that the ceremony was not specifically devoted to that attack anyway.

Criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism, and whatever the extent of it may be in the Labour Party, your sources don't reveal much

Corbyn's well-documented, obsessive antisemitism is not ambiguous, nor is it a subject of debate. It's a key part of the party you choose to endorse. Either you endorse it, or you've simply decided it's an acceptable price to pay. Much like Trump's racism, there's no separating the two. Live with it.

Both Corbyn's supposed anti-Semitism (and Trump's supposed racism) are absolutely subject to debate, and they are key reasons why both have such vigorous supporters and detractors. It's all a matter of how much one wants to read into, and how one interprets, various statements and how much credence one lends to various narratives. And given people constantly disagree over anti-Semitism, and to what constitutes examples of it, and people constantly besmirch their opponents with its label, there is no reason why it would be any different for high profile politicians like Corbyn and Trump, especially when enough of their statements are ambiguous as they are. And to act any differently, as though it's just a foregone conclusion not even subject to debate itself, is ridiculous.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC