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  13 same-sex couples sue Japan for marriage equality
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Author Topic: 13 same-sex couples sue Japan for marriage equality  (Read 1125 times)
Lourdes
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« on: February 14, 2019, 08:01:35 am »

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/14/694628472/same-sex-couples-sue-for-the-right-to-marry-in-japan

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Eastern Kentucky Demosaur fighting the long defeat
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 04:04:06 pm »

I don't think this is a sound reading of the relevant parts of the Japanese Constitution, and the Supreme Court of Japan is if anything even more of an authoritarian bastion than the Diet, but here's hoping this suit leads to an improvement in the legal status of Japanese same-sex couples anyway.
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Insomnian
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 12:07:06 pm »

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Something tells me they're going to lose.
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 04:56:53 pm »

As a member of the LGBT community I wish them the best, though I think pushing for something like domestic partnerships or civil unions (which are not equal and not a substitute for marriage equality, btw) would be a more sound step towards progress.
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Cleveland Rocks
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 07:15:11 pm »

I just had it in my head that neither the most nor the least religious countries in the world have SSM!

(Japan and India)
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Ses
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 08:45:18 pm »

I just had it in my head that neither the most nor the least religious countries in the world have SSM!

(Japan and India)

Uh, isn't China the least religious?
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Beet
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 09:37:13 pm »

It's absurd that Japan hasn't legalized same-sex marriage yet.
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Blue3
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 10:21:10 pm »

I wonder why Japan is so socially0conservative on this, when they're not that religious, and they never were under the influence of the Abrahamic faiths either which tended to be more anti-gay than the Dharmic and Sino faiths.

China was actually probably the most LGBT-friendly of the ancient civilizations, perhaps even moreso than Greece, and it was the greatest foreign influence on Japan. I believe the Samurai were often same-sex lovers too.
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 02:28:30 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile
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Insomnian
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 02:31:05 am »
« Edited: February 17, 2019, 02:35:45 am by Insomnian »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

This has sort-of happened in Africa with regards to basic LGBT rights. https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-africas-turning-anti-gay
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 02:37:42 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.
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Insomnian
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 02:41:48 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.

You might think so, but in Japan at the very least, the youth are actually significantly more conservative than their parents. It is incredibly dangerous for people to just happily assume they're "on the right side of history" and just have to virtue-signal until the walls all come down around them.

And outside of Asia, the vast amount of population growth is taking place in either very conservative Christian areas (often in Africa) or very Islamic areas - which is part of why most historically secular Muslim democracies are becoming much less secular (like Turkey or Indonesia).

I would not place my bets on global LGBT rights being better in 2050.
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 02:47:54 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.

You might think so, but in Japan at the very least, the youth are actually significantly more conservative than their parents. It is incredibly dangerous for people to just happily assume they're "on the right side of history" and just have to virtue-signal until the walls all come down around them.

And outside of Asia, the vast amount of population growth is taking place in either very conservative Christian areas (often in Africa) or very Islamic areas - which is part of why most historically secular Muslim democracies are becoming much less secular (like Turkey or Indonesia).

I would not place my bets on global LGBT rights being better in 2050.

I watch a lot of documentaries / interview with Japanese people on YouTube. I canít say I agree with your assessment. Most young Japanese people Iíve seen seem very cosmopolitan / forward thinking.

https://youtu.be/fxQYu4MOFCY

But to be clear, I am mostly talking about East Asia.  I do agree that North Africa / Middle East, etc is a different case.

Hell those countries can barley agree to let women drive / vote or not put LGBT people to death, sooo.
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Insomnian
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 02:52:42 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.

You might think so, but in Japan at the very least, the youth are actually significantly more conservative than their parents. It is incredibly dangerous for people to just happily assume they're "on the right side of history" and just have to virtue-signal until the walls all come down around them.

And outside of Asia, the vast amount of population growth is taking place in either very conservative Christian areas (often in Africa) or very Islamic areas - which is part of why most historically secular Muslim democracies are becoming much less secular (like Turkey or Indonesia).

I would not place my bets on global LGBT rights being better in 2050.

I watch a lot of documentaries / interview with Japanese people on YouTube. I canít say I agree with your assessment. Most young Japanese people Iíve seen seem very cosmopolitan / forward thinking.

https://youtu.be/fxQYu4MOFCY

But to be clear, I am mostly talking about East Asia.  I do agree that North Africa / Middle East, etc is a different case.

Hell those countries can barley agree to let women drive / vote or not put LGBT people to death, sooo.

I lived in Japan for years and have several friends involved in Japanese party politics. Young Japanese people on Youtube are not a representative subset of young Japanese people. Objectively speaking, conservative parties do significantly better among young voters, and "far-right" parties/movements are even more youth-skewed. The political parties in Japan that support SSM (CDP and JCP) have a very very old, mostly pensioner voting base and only add up to maybe 25% of the country.

It would be very ill-advised for Japanese to try to gauge young American popular opinion by wandering either the halls of Oberlin or Liberty University.
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 03:14:23 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.

You might think so, but in Japan at the very least, the youth are actually significantly more conservative than their parents. It is incredibly dangerous for people to just happily assume they're "on the right side of history" and just have to virtue-signal until the walls all come down around them.

And outside of Asia, the vast amount of population growth is taking place in either very conservative Christian areas (often in Africa) or very Islamic areas - which is part of why most historically secular Muslim democracies are becoming much less secular (like Turkey or Indonesia).

I would not place my bets on global LGBT rights being better in 2050.

I watch a lot of documentaries / interview with Japanese people on YouTube. I canít say I agree with your assessment. Most young Japanese people Iíve seen seem very cosmopolitan / forward thinking.

https://youtu.be/fxQYu4MOFCY

But to be clear, I am mostly talking about East Asia.  I do agree that North Africa / Middle East, etc is a different case.

Hell those countries can barley agree to let women drive / vote or not put LGBT people to death, sooo.

I lived in Japan for years and have several friends involved in Japanese party politics. Young Japanese people on Youtube are not a representative subset of young Japanese people. Objectively speaking, conservative parties do significantly better among young voters, and "far-right" parties/movements are even more youth-skewed. The political parties in Japan that support SSM (CDP and JCP) have a very very old, mostly pensioner voting base and only add up to maybe 25% of the country.

It would be very ill-advised for Japanese to try to gauge young American popular opinion by wandering either the halls of Oberlin or Liberty University.

All interesting (if somewhat sobering) points, Iíll need to do more research.
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Beet
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 09:55:56 am »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

LGBT tolerance in Asia doesn't actually equate to support for same-sex marriage. SSM polled well in Taiwan, which is generally known for being the most LGBT-friendly country in Asia. No poll found same-sex marriage underwater in Taiwan - conservative polls found 54-44, liberals found 71-29%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Taiwan#Public_opinion

Same-sex marriage still went down in flames in a referendum, 27.5-73.5.

Same-sex marriage hasn't been implemented in any non-Western society, and I suspect that western/white liberals are going to make this a civilizational issue ("you must adopt our superior Western culture in gay marriage!"), which would have a devastating impact on local LGBT people.

Oh I fully recognize that Asia is very different from the west on this subject. On the one hand, homophobia isnít very prevalent or spoken about much, and I think many would frown on it. On the other hand, I think itís simply an uncomfortable subject for most Asian countries.

As always, the young people will lead the way in the years to come ó and in 10-20 years, Iím confident weíll see LGBT rights expanding across Asia, just as it already slowly is.

You might think so, but in Japan at the very least, the youth are actually significantly more conservative than their parents. It is incredibly dangerous for people to just happily assume they're "on the right side of history" and just have to virtue-signal until the walls all come down around them.

And outside of Asia, the vast amount of population growth is taking place in either very conservative Christian areas (often in Africa) or very Islamic areas - which is part of why most historically secular Muslim democracies are becoming much less secular (like Turkey or Indonesia).

I would not place my bets on global LGBT rights being better in 2050.

I watch a lot of documentaries / interview with Japanese people on YouTube. I canít say I agree with your assessment. Most young Japanese people Iíve seen seem very cosmopolitan / forward thinking.

https://youtu.be/fxQYu4MOFCY

But to be clear, I am mostly talking about East Asia.  I do agree that North Africa / Middle East, etc is a different case.

Hell those countries can barley agree to let women drive / vote or not put LGBT people to death, sooo.

I lived in Japan for years and have several friends involved in Japanese party politics. Young Japanese people on Youtube are not a representative subset of young Japanese people. Objectively speaking, conservative parties do significantly better among young voters, and "far-right" parties/movements are even more youth-skewed. The political parties in Japan that support SSM (CDP and JCP) have a very very old, mostly pensioner voting base and only add up to maybe 25% of the country.

It would be very ill-advised for Japanese to try to gauge young American popular opinion by wandering either the halls of Oberlin or Liberty University.

In my experience, Westerners who go to live in Japan, Korea, and China often come back biased and tend to only give one side of the story. The polls contradict what you are saying. Japanese youth, like young people elsewhere, are more liberal (even if, like youth elsewhere, they are not inspired by left-wing political parties):

"Fifty-one percent of people polled by researchers from universities and the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research back marriage equality, the Asahi newspaper reported.

Support for same-sex marriage was much higher in younger age groups, with over 70 per cent 20-40 year olds backing the move.


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/11/29/new-poll-shows-majority-of-japanese-support-marriage-equality/

"Younger people tend to back same-sex marriages. Those positive about same-gender marriages accounted for 87.3 percent of twentysomethings,"

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201901280009.html
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Esteemed Jimmy7812
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2019, 12:43:00 pm »

It's absurd that Japan hasn't legalized same-sex marriage yet.
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iBizzBee
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2019, 12:43:17 pm »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

That's not going to happen. It's very hard to tell what the political makeup of future generations will be. Gen Z appears to be socially progressive but who knows that the future holds. In a few generations from now, views of the LGBT movement may be far different than what they are today. It's a matter of teaching the future generations that the current generation is immoral and wrong.

Conservatives have never won a major social fight, so good luck with that.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice".
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tack50
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2019, 03:27:28 pm »

They're not going to win. Japan is still a socially conservative country and will not fall for the political movements that are taking place in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Japan

Is that why most polls show support for marriage equality in Japan? Homophobia as it exists in the west is also very rare in Japan, by the way.

As much as it pains you, Iím sure, gay people are here, weíre here to stay, and we exist all around the world.

In every nation and on every continent.

 Smile

I imagine the fact that Japan is dominated by the LDP (which is still generally conservative) is the reason why same sex marriage has never been legalized?

Probably that plus I guess cultural differences regarding huge influence by older people (more conservative)
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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 04:27:47 pm »
« Edited: February 18, 2019, 04:51:20 pm by God-Emperor Schultz »

Young Japanese people do tend to vote well to the right of older people (much to my and many other onlookers' chagrin), which is part of why Abe is lowering the age of majority from 20 to 18, but the vast majority of this is because of muh nationalism and because of the perception that Abe's regime is actually interested in contemplating a Japanese future rather than just running maintenance on the once very successful but now floundering postwar way of doing things. They're not Buddhist or Shintoist answers to ExtremeConservative or the Covington kids.

I agree that Western liberals making LGBT rights a "civilizational" or ~cosmopolitan values~ thing (as opposed to a human rights thing, which isn't the same thing) has contributed to disastrous outcomes for LGBT people's safety in much of the non-Western world, but I'm not convinced the worst outcomes are nearly as much of a danger in East Asia as they are in Africa and the regions around the Indian Ocean.
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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 05:28:52 pm »

I wonder why Japan is so socially0conservative on this, when they're not that religious, and they never were under the influence of the Abrahamic faiths either which tended to be more anti-gay than the Dharmic and Sino faiths.

China was actually probably the most LGBT-friendly of the ancient civilizations, perhaps even moreso than Greece, and it was the greatest foreign influence on Japan. I believe the Samurai were often same-sex lovers too.

I think you could argue Japan is just a very "temperamentally conservative" society. Basically the highest goal you can pursue by their standards is to put yourself absolutely last in the hierarchy of people/things you try to please or make happy. Your ancestors, your immediate and extended family, your workplace, your community, the country, all of those are supposed to take priority over what you want or need.

Living an LGBT life means you will not produce children, which is seen as a dereliction of family obligations. Because your household is two people of the same sex, it's not possible for you to divide household obligations along traditional gender lines set by Japanese culture - another dereliction of duty.

Japan doesn't frown upon LGBT people because "OHMYGOD YOU SODOMITE YOU'RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!" but because they are viewed, on some level, as being self-indulgent and undutiful.
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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 06:23:48 pm »

Anyone with a pro Rick Scott signature is bound to have otherworldly views.

Besides that, hope this works, unlikely though.
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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 09:44:48 pm »
« Edited: February 18, 2019, 09:49:50 pm by God-Emperor Schultz »

Japan doesn't frown upon LGBT people because "OHMYGOD YOU SODOMITE YOU'RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!" but because they are viewed, on some level, as being self-indulgent and undutiful.

Yep, this about covers it. In my own experience, I've never talked to a Japanese person who got as virulently hateful towards LGBT people as conservative Christians or conservative Muslims can get, but I've known more Japanese people who got exasperated or dismissive when LGBT issues were brought up than who didn't.
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