Are the Dems in disarray?

[Antonio the Sixth]

The so-called Green New Deal may have shifted the 'Overton Window'

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/some-gop-lawmakers-are-thawing-on-climate-change

Some GOP lawmakers are thawing on climate change
‘There are some things I’m willing to look at,’ said House Freedom Caucus chairman Rep. Mark Meadows

I don't think the 'Green New Deal' or 'Medicare for All' were ever more than slogans, but AOC does seem to appreciate the way to shift debate.

"Shimkus agreed with the sentiment that Democrats’ Green New Deal created an opportunity to craft a more politically-moderate approach to addressing climate that could receive buy-in from his party."

I guess that theory of overselling to reach a favorable compromise, that I always see being advocated for on this forum (especially among the more further left posters), works.

Took you long enough to realize. The right has been using it with great success for 40 years.

[Progressive Pessimist]

The so-called Green New Deal may have shifted the 'Overton Window'

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/some-gop-lawmakers-are-thawing-on-climate-change

Some GOP lawmakers are thawing on climate change
‘There are some things I’m willing to look at,’ said House Freedom Caucus chairman Rep. Mark Meadows

I don't think the 'Green New Deal' or 'Medicare for All' were ever more than slogans, but AOC does seem to appreciate the way to shift debate.

"Shimkus agreed with the sentiment that Democrats’ Green New Deal created an opportunity to craft a more politically-moderate approach to addressing climate that could receive buy-in from his party."

I guess that theory of overselling to reach a favorable compromise, that I always see being advocated for on this forum (especially among the more further left posters), works.

Took you long enough to realize. The right has been using it with great success for 40 years.

Well Democrats have to be in a position of power first to make this work properly. They finally have that chance with the House in their control. I still don't think overselling as part of campaigning necessarily works the same way though.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Republicans spent 20 years with next to no substantive policy influence until Reagan won in 1980. They spent this time laying the ideological groundwork for the conservative revolution.

[courts]

The Democrats are less diverse than ever, in terms of ideology. In that respect, so is the GOP.  This is the result of a more ideologically-based party system that we have today.  No Democratic Senator can declare today (as Herman Talmadge of Georgia declared in 1972) that he was "poles apart" from the Democratic Party's Presidential nominee (as he was, position-wise, from George McGovern in 1972).  The Democrats are not that kind of party anymore.

The line of cleavage within the party is rapidly becoming a split between Democratic Socialists (of the AOC mold) and the Neoliberal left that has come to dominate states like California and the New England states.  None of these folks would be comfortable being Republicans, but it is not inconceivable that some of the Neoliberals would join the GOP if the GOP dropped its Social Conservatism (which, IMO, is not likely at all).  Secret Socialists have long been a part of the Democratic Party, but now they are declaring themselves and "Capitalism", itself, is becoming an issue for Democrats.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time.  

well, i think it's a bit complicated. yes there is tension between the affluent suburbanites and the cortez types. but also the "middle class" is a more precarious place to be and therefore some aspects of progressivism appeal a bit more. even if there is some leeriness over taxes and deep divisions regarding the pensions situation, education and other issues in democrat-dominated states

[Dillon]

Democrats are in a similar situation as republicans in the Teddy Roosevelt days. If they continue to choose the old guard for positions of power we could very well see an actual "democratic civil war", as the new face of the Democrats is clearly the progressive wing.

[Badger]

Wulfric and limo liberal said so, so obviously the answer is yes.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Secret Socialists have long been a part of the Democratic Party, but now they are declaring themselves and "Capitalism", itself, is becoming an issue for Democrats.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time.  

Out of all the Bernie/AOC progressives relevant to American politics at this time, NONE of them have an issue with capitalism itself.  All of these people want and desire capitalism. They have issues with corruption, oligarchy and a lack of regulation. They are striving for a Denmark / Sweden style of system, which you can easily research and see is 100% capitalist.

There is NO battle against capitalism. There are NO calls for communism. I love Bsrnie and AOC to death, but they make a big mistake using the term "socialism" to describe their beliefs. That word is a political cancer; and what they are seeking is a more socialized version of a CAPITALIST system.

The worst part is, you know this Fuzzy. Many conservatives know this actually. They just refuse to stop using this misleading talking point as propoganda. Bernie foolishly gave them an excuse to smear him and they've been running with it for years. What I wonder is, why are conservatives so desperate to use misleading arguments to make the other side SEEM to be wrong, instead if just touting their own supposedly superior ideas? Shouldn't an idea's superiority be able to win hearts and minds over other ideas without trickery? Hmm..

I haven't heard anything from Bernie or AOC that leads me to believe they have any fondness for capitalism. Have you?  Pelosi and Warren want a more regulated capitalism with a larger safety net.  But Bernie and AOC seem to be true believers who will go as far toward socialism as the political environment allows.

[T'Chenka]

Secret Socialists have long been a part of the Democratic Party, but now they are declaring themselves and "Capitalism", itself, is becoming an issue for Democrats.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time.  

Out of all the Bernie/AOC progressives relevant to American politics at this time, NONE of them have an issue with capitalism itself.  All of these people want and desire capitalism. They have issues with corruption, oligarchy and a lack of regulation. They are striving for a Denmark / Sweden style of system, which you can easily research and see is 100% capitalist.

There is NO battle against capitalism. There are NO calls for communism. I love Bsrnie and AOC to death, but they make a big mistake using the term "socialism" to describe their beliefs. That word is a political cancer; and what they are seeking is a more socialized version of a CAPITALIST system.

The worst part is, you know this Fuzzy. Many conservatives know this actually. They just refuse to stop using this misleading talking point as propoganda. Bernie foolishly gave them an excuse to smear him and they've been running with it for years. What I wonder is, why are conservatives so desperate to use misleading arguments to make the other side SEEM to be wrong, instead if just touting their own supposedly superior ideas? Shouldn't an idea's superiority be able to win hearts and minds over other ideas without trickery? Hmm..

I haven't heard anything from Bernie or AOC that leads me to believe they have any fondness for capitalism. Have you?  Pelosi and Warren want a more regulated capitalism with a larger safety net.  But Bernie and AOC seem to be true believers who will go as far toward socialism as the political environment allows.

Bernie Sanders

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Samuel Goldman
Assistant Professor of Political Science, George Washington University, 2015
please note the conservative nature of this source, AmericanConservative . com

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Sources
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/democrats-are-not-socialists-and-neither-is-bernie-sanders/

[Dillon]

To quote Sanders: "Capitalism does a number of things very well: it helps create an entrepreneurial spirit; it gets people motivated to come up with new ideas, and that's a good thing."

To say that Sanders or any elected member to national office is post capitalist is absurd. The farthest left elected politicians go is what is effectively international centrism.

[Ogre Mage]

Democrats -- in disarray since 1860.

[136or142]

Secret Socialists have long been a part of the Democratic Party, but now they are declaring themselves and "Capitalism", itself, is becoming an issue for Democrats.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out over time.  

Out of all the Bernie/AOC progressives relevant to American politics at this time, NONE of them have an issue with capitalism itself.  All of these people want and desire capitalism. They have issues with corruption, oligarchy and a lack of regulation. They are striving for a Denmark / Sweden style of system, which you can easily research and see is 100% capitalist.

There is NO battle against capitalism. There are NO calls for communism. I love Bsrnie and AOC to death, but they make a big mistake using the term "socialism" to describe their beliefs. That word is a political cancer; and what they are seeking is a more socialized version of a CAPITALIST system.

The worst part is, you know this Fuzzy. Many conservatives know this actually. They just refuse to stop using this misleading talking point as propoganda. Bernie foolishly gave them an excuse to smear him and they've been running with it for years. What I wonder is, why are conservatives so desperate to use misleading arguments to make the other side SEEM to be wrong, instead if just touting their own supposedly superior ideas? Shouldn't an idea's superiority be able to win hearts and minds over other ideas without trickery? Hmm..

I haven't heard anything from Bernie or AOC that leads me to believe they have any fondness for capitalism. Have you?  Pelosi and Warren want a more regulated capitalism with a larger safety net.  But Bernie and AOC seem to be true believers who will go as far toward socialism as the political environment allows.

Bernie Sanders and AOC are supporters of Democratic Socialism, not social democracy or socialism.  Democratic Socialism advocates for Worker Owned Enterprises.  I know that many Democratic Socialists don't seem to agree, but I think they simply don't understand that as long as these businesses operate on more or less profit maximization principles, they are simply capitalist enterprises with a less common ownership structure.

If they advocate getting away from profit maximization principles, as ideal as that might sound, I think it could easily lead to crony capitalism or the South Korean business model of Chaebol, which has had all sorts of problems.  However, obviously these are presently completely abstract concerns.

AOC herself founded a publishing house that I believe operated on a Democratic Socialist model - Brook Avenue Press.