Blair loses vote on Terror legislation

[Peter]

Interestingly, according to publicwhip.org.uk there was one Tory rebel also: Sir Peter Tapsell, who I believe is the Uncle of the House.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Interestingly, according to publicwhip.org.uk there was one Tory rebel also: Sir Peter Tapsell, who I believe is the Uncle of the House.

Is he still alive? Good Lord.

[Peter]

Interestingly, according to publicwhip.org.uk there was one Tory rebel also: Sir Peter Tapsell, who I believe is the Uncle of the House.

Is he still alive? Good Lord.

Indeed, first elected in 1959 (and is therefore the only Parliamentary survivor of the 50s, and one of only two I believe from the 60s along with the Father, Alan Williams), he was then defeated in 1964 for re-election. In 1966, he got back into Parliament, and has remained ever since.

[afleitch]

Interestingly, according to publicwhip.org.uk there was one Tory rebel also: Sir Peter Tapsell, who I believe is the Uncle of the House.

Is he still alive? Good Lord.

Indeed, first elected in 1959 (and is therefore the only Parliamentary survivor of the 50s, and one of only two I believe from the 60s along with the Father, Alan Williams), he was then defeated in 1964 for re-election. In 1966, he got back into Parliament, and has remained ever since.

Sounds like a possible by-election to me!

[Peter]

Speaking of by-elections, I was surfing round publicwhip.org.uk, and according to its attendance stats, Rachel Squire, Labour MP for Dunfermline and West Fife hasn't made a single vote - I did some checking, she had a brain tumour last year, and this June she had a bleed on the brain, presumably a complication. Whether she'll recover, who knows.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Apparently Howard has said that Blair should resign

Will be interesting to see how this plays electorally; over 70% of the public support the 90 days proposal. Tories could get themselves seriously burned over this...

Howard is a feckless bastard and he knows it

Yes, I do indeed, hope the Tories pay the price for their opportunistic folly at the ballot box

Dave

Well said!

The problem with the Conservative party is that they are today truly (as Edmund Burke noted) the stupid party.

They mindlessly oppose, without looking at the merits.

Most of them are no better than the Chirac slimebags in France.

Churchill is probably spinning in his grave.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Sounds like a possible by-election to me!

His name is certainly on the "stiffs list"... a by-election in his seat (Louth & Horncastle) could be very interesting with him out of the way; he's got a huge personal vote (and rosettes oddly enough. Got splashes of red in them; red was the traditional Tory colour in Lincolnshire for some reason) and with him out of the way, the seat could be a reasonable three-way marginal. Interestingly enough, were it not for his personal vote the seat would have been won by the Liberals in 1983.

[minionofmidas]

Uncle of the House [chuckles].

I'd figured that, if there was no Tory or LD rebel, 16 Labour and 14 Opposition MPs did not vote. Change that to 17 Labour and 13 Opposition, now...

Still nobody with a list of 28 day rebels?

Oh, and btw. It's not as if demand for 90 day detentions came from the people, and it#s not as if it will long outlive this vote. The Tories may have made a minor tactical mistake not voting for the 28 days, though. That could have been marketed aggressively as a "pro-police, but with a brain" position.

[Democratic Hawk]

I think The Guardian lists those MPs who didn't vote. Do you know who the real hypocrite was in this vote? The Rev. Ian Paisley of the Democrratic Unionist Party. I've just gone right off that dude

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

I was talking to the Muslims in my local Tandoori last night and they were disgusted that the Bill was watered down. They gave me a nan bread on the house. All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

Dave

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'd figured that, if there was no Tory or LD rebel, 16 Labour and 14 Opposition MPs did not vote. Change that to 17 Labour and 13 Opposition, now...

I saw a list of M.P's who didn't vote somewhere...

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Nope

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No it didn't; but there have been plenty of demands for tough anti-terror policies ever since the bombings. Methinks that if flat-out internment was suggested, a majority of people would probably support it. It's just the way things are right now.

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The specific demand won't (unless the Sun goes completely nuts over it) but general demands for draconian legislation and a general feeling that most M.P's are a bunch of pansies won't go away for quite a while (interestingly enough there are several Labour M.P's who I thought might vote against 90 days but didn't; almost all representing working class constituencies and likely not immune to deselection bids. Up to a point the reverse is the case for a certain M.P for an East Birmingham seat with a very large Asian population who only escaped deselection last time round via his usual Union block-vote trick).

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Depending on how things pan out over the next few days it could be more than just a minor mistake; mind you if there is political capital to be gained from being strongly in favour of this sort of legislation (and there clearly is) there probably is some (not as much but still some) to be gained from going the other way.
Depends what sort of voters you're chasing and what sort you are prepared to lose to get them...

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Using that sort of language would have backfired pretty badly IMO; certain tabloid newspapers would have a lot of fun with that...

[Peter]

I'd figured that, if there was no Tory or LD rebel, 16 Labour and 14 Opposition MPs did not vote. Change that to 17 Labour and 13 Opposition, now...

Still nobody with a list of 28 day rebels?

All votes cast in 90 days vote (including the "abstainers")

All votes cast in 28 days vote

And the 28 days vote is damned peculiar, I mean *damned* peculiar. Did the government want no holding time at all?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Now that's just weird... or is it? If this ammendment had lost the vote would have been on 60 days.

[minionofmidas]

I think The Guardian lists those MPs who didn't vote. Do you know who the real hypocrite was in this vote? The Rev. Ian Paisley of the Democrratic Unionist Party. I've just gone right off that dude

Dave

Pure self interest. Unlike actual Islamic terrorists, here is someone whom the law might actually have taken hold of.

[minionofmidas]

All votes cast in 28 days vote

And the 28 days vote is damned peculiar, I mean *damned* peculiar. Did the government want no holding time at all?

Wait a sec - so the 28 days was voted for by the Tories after all and voted no by the Government? In other words, no compromise measure was passed but rather, the government was defeated twice in a row by the same margin?

[minionofmidas]

I was talking to the Muslims in my local Tandoori last night and they were disgusted that the Bill was watered down. They gave me a nan bread on the house. All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

Dave

It's not a question of Muslim vs non-Muslim...nor of law-abiding vs non-law-abiding...nor even a question of class though that comes into play indirectly...seems more like a question of thought-through vs not-thought-through.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Wait a sec - so the 28 days was voted for by the Tories after all and voted no by the Government? In other words, no compromise measure was passed but rather, the government was defeated twice in a row by the same margin?

It was a backbench ammendment; not sure if it was a whipped vote or not* and generally speaking the Government is only considered to have lost a vote if the vote was whipped (if you count defeats in all votes whether whipped or not, the Government had lost something like five (I forget the exact figure) before yesterday).
Media haven't given it much attention if it helps.

*you can't tell with Public Whip as they never bother to find out whether or not a vote was whipped

[Peter]

*you can't tell with Public Whip as they never bother to find out whether or not a vote was whipped

They don't collect that data for the reasons outlined here. Thing is that they will only record the party whipping if they can get it recorded for all votes, which they can't.

[Emsworth]

All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

The question is not about abhorring or condoning terrorism. It is about whether any person should be condemned for terrorist activities after a fair and impartial trial, or at the whim and pleasure of the government.

The view that the government may label anyone a "terrorist" and proceed to deprive him of all liberties and protections without a trial is an extremely dangerous one. If Parliament accepts this position, it might as well burn the Magna Carta and the Petition of Right.

[Democratic Hawk]

All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

The question is not about abhorring or condoning terrorism. It is about whether any person should be condemned for terrorist activities after a fair and impartial trial, or at the whim and pleasure of the government.

I hardly think that the government or police would have used it to detain any suspect at whim. We are the United Kingdom not some 'Banana' Republic

I support 90-days detention in combating terrorism and the criminalisation of its glorification. Perhaps, when terrorists cease in their activity (that is, crimes against civil society), then it would be appropriate to relax security measures. The ball is in their court. It was they who were responsible for 7 July not the British Government

Dave

[Emsworth]

I hardly think that the government or police would have used it to detain any suspect at whim.

If we repose such extraordinary trust in the government, we might as well get abolish trials altogether. The same line of reasoning can, after all, be applied to other crimes: "the government would not use the power to detain suspects at whim" in those cases as well.

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I do not think that this is relevant.

[Democratic Hawk]

I hardly think that the government or police would have used it to detain any suspect at whim.

If we repose such extraordinary trust in the government, we might as well get abolish trials altogether. The same line of reasoning can, after all, be applied to other crimes: "the government would not use the power to detain suspects at whim" in those cases as well.

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I do not think that this is relevant.

From what I can gather, totalitarian, which on reflection is what I should have said, regimes do detain their opponents at whim, unlike most, if not all, liberal democracies I merely referred to them for differentiation purposes

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

Apparently Howard has said that Blair should resign

Will be interesting to see how this plays electorally; over 70% of the public support the 90 days proposal. Tories could get themselves seriously burned over this...

Howard is a feckless bastard and he knows it

Yes, I do indeed, hope the Tories pay the price for their opportunistic folly at the ballot box

Dave

Well said!

The problem with the Conservative party is that they are today truly (as Edmund Burke noted) the stupid party.

They mindlessly oppose, without looking at the merits.

Most of them are no better than the Chirac slimebags in France.

Churchill is probably spinning in his grave.

You're spot on there Carl. And they wonder why they have been in opposition for so long. I'll tell you why, they are out of touch - but for what it's worth had this been a Conservative government's initiative, I'd have supported them too (It doesn't mean I could ever vote for them though)

Sadly, the Conservative Party bottled out out of stank opportunism or just simply to woo some Muslim voters - and I hope the price they pay for doing so is ultimately high. As for the airy-fairy namby-pamby Lib Dims/Dums (I can never remember), I wouldn't have expected anything else

Dave

[afleitch]

I'm afraid I do not believe the Conservative party was trying to woo Muslim voters at all, even If I disagree with how the vote went. Both the Labour Party, through it's incitement to religious hatred bill and the Lib Dems with thei reactionary nonsense are the two largest parties who try to woo the Muslim vote (the less said about Respect then the better ) If anything, it was the what Pete Bell describes as the 'civil libertarian' side of the Conservative Party that shone through here. They cannot be accused of being an inneffective opposition in that respect. I still believe that 90 days is unworkable, 28 days too short and that a if a 60 day limit which I support had been proposed it may have been passed or suffered only a narrow defeat.

[Democratic Hawk]

If anything, it was the what Pete Bell describes as the 'civil libertarian' side of the Conservative Party that shone through here

Would you say 'civil libertarians' comprised a majority of Conservative MPs these days?

Dave