6th Grader refuses to stand for pledge of allegiance, arrested for "disturbance"

[Progressive Pessimist]

This kid is a freedom fighter!

Though I will say that my sister actually did this once, publicly, in front of an audience and everything. She didn't receive any consequence for it. So thankfully, this isn't an epidemic or anything, though still very disturbing in this specific case.

[T'Chenka]

Conservatives: "OUR TROOPS DIED DEFENDING YOUR RIGHT NOT TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE!"

Also Conservatives: "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT NOT TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE!"

I feel REALLY BAD for the principled American conservatives, because their colleagues have DESTROYED the reputation of the right wing in recent years. Nowadays, I hear "conservative" and I expect a clown... and I usually get one.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This kid is a freedom fighter!

Though I will say that my sister actually did this once, publicly, in front of an audience and everything. She didn't receive any consequence for it. So thankfully, this isn't an epidemic or anything, though still very disturbing in this specific case.

Freedom Fighter my foot.  That being said, the Supreme Court long ago prohibited mandatory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette.  

The issue isn't that the kid didn't stand for the flag.  The issue is that this kid, who likely had underlying emotional problems, was provoked needlessly by a teacher who didn't get it.  That, coupled with the utterly abysmal staff in Florida's Public Schools who are unprepared to deal with kids with problems.

[Ban my account ffs!]

This kid is a freedom fighter!

Though I will say that my sister actually did this once, publicly, in front of an audience and everything. She didn't receive any consequence for it. So thankfully, this isn't an epidemic or anything, though still very disturbing in this specific case.

Freedom Fighter my foot.  That being said, the Supreme Court long ago prohibited mandatory participation in the Pledge of Allegiance in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. 

The issue isn't that the kid didn't stand for the flag.  The issue is that this kid, who likely had underlying emotional problems, was provoked needlessly by a teacher who didn't get it.  That, coupled with the utterly abysmal staff in Florida's Public Schools who are unprepared to deal with kids with problems.

Substitute teacher standards are hilariously low everywhere.  The variability in quality is amazing.  This is a bad deal because
1)  The substitute teacher didn't know the kid
2)  Neither did the Dean of Students, necessarily

There were 3 missed opportunities by "trained" adults to deal with the kid.  But then if the substitute teacher or dean had touched the kid they'd either be a violent child abuser or sick pedophile predator.  Especially in Florida where everyone wants to live with like minded people and still avoid getting to know each other.

Florida literally has antisocial personality disorder.

[pbrower2a]

I've been a substitute teacher, and I have asked about the situation before being hired. I know about Jehovah's Witnesses, and I understand that they consider any salute to the flag an abominable act of idolatry. Jehovah's Witnesses have as much a right to a public-school education as any other kids, and they should not be singled out for a benign difference.

They also deserve respect for making principled exceptions to a social norm if such is a dictate of their religious culture. I may not be much of a religious man, but I will stand behind the rights of People of Faith at every turn. Refusal to treat a symbol of benign patriotism with normal reverence is a right, which I will not say about ignorance. (One can  believe something so pointless as young-earth creationism, but one has no 'right' to not know about mainstream science on evolution, astronomy, archeology, paleontology and plate tectonics if those are elements of the science that are part of the public-school curriculum simply because evolution and a short-lived Earth violate one's superstitions.

OK, so what if the kid's parents are Communists? Were I a Commie I would recognize that during the Great Patriotic War, forty-eight stars and thirteen stripes symbolized an  ally of the Soviet Union. The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with "free enterprise" or "class privilege" both anathemas to Communism. If I had to choose between loyalty to the American working class (which is far more Americans) or to an irresponsible ruling class of exploitative property owners and executives, my loyalty would be to the working class. Anyone who supports fascism or a neo-feudal social order is to me (and I am not a Communist  because I distrust Communists with human rights) is as much a traitor to America as any Communist could ever be, and even worse, supports the sort of realities that make a proletarian revolution possible.

(I would drop the "under God" part, added in the 1950s on the assumption that support for the Judeo-Christian concept of God is essential to rejection of Communism. Would you have a problem with someone who says "under Allah" instead of "under God"? It is the same God.   

[DavidB.]

Good.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The "Disturbing A School Function" statute in Florida is a catch-all, designed to criminalize acting-out behaviors in the classroom, as well as persons who become demonstratively vocal at school board meetings or in parent-teacher conferences.

Education officials are rather High and Mighty in Florida.  They really do act as God-Emperors to quell opposition to their dictates, especially when they are required to defend outrageous uses of their "authority".

I am the parent of a Special Needs child who, when he attended public school, was often not receiving what was required by his Individualized Education Plan (IEP).  A principal actually told me that he "had the power" to bar me from the school if I was going to be "rude" to his staff.  His idea of "rudeness" was reminding a teacher that my son's IEP plan was an entitlement, and not just something nice if it were convenient for the school to implement it. 

I could go on and on about this.  Educational bureareaucracies are the worst examples of arrogant exercising of governmental authority today for most ordinary people. 

[GP270watch]

  Why don't schools have a response staff for unruly children that doesn't involve police or security officers. They should have people trained to deescalate children with behavioral issues throwing tantrums or kids with special needs acting out their frustrations. Imagine the work that could be done with that approach instead of criminalizing children and turning everything into an incident.

[progressive85]

The irony is that the very liberty spoken of in the pledge is what allows students to refuse it to begin with.

[Badger]

Good.

How....ironic.

[DavidB.]

Good.

How....ironic.

Because?

[Horus]

Good.

How....ironic.

Because?

lol

[pbrower2a]

  Why don't schools have a response staff for unruly children that doesn't involve police or security officers. They should have people trained to deescalate children with behavioral issues throwing tantrums or kids with special needs acting out their frustrations. Imagine the work that could be done with that approach instead of criminalizing children and turning everything into an incident.

This is an exercise of freedom of religion within a public institution. It is never acceptable to compel a student in a public school to do something contrary to his beliefs. A student has no obligation to give a prayer that contains a clear violation of his beliefs, to perform an act that his religious beliefs hold as idolatrous, to deny one's religious beliefs or tenets, or to experience a mockery of his religious views.

I had to tread lightly on a Satanist, of all things. You can just imagine how objectionable Satanism is to me, as I would never imagine worshiping an entity who would destroy Humanity in its service. But someone did, probably to shock me, and all I could say was to recite a portion of the First Amendment regarding religious freedom. I could notice that his ritual cadged pieces of the Roman Catholic Mass and a Masonic ceremony, which is terribly unoriginal. I could explain why I was not a Satanist and that I would never become one. I expressed my perplexed state by stating that I had encountered a great variety of religious beliefs that did not fit my cultural values but seemed to fortify the goodness and decency of those people -- but that Satanism seemed unlikely to ever do that.

No, you do not get a Jew to participate in a prayer that ends "In Jesus' Name we pray". (Paradoxically practically any Jewish prayer is compatible with Christianity). No, you treat Mohammed with kid gloves. You do not contend that Buddhism is absurd. You do not ridicule the Book of Mormon. You do not demand that students deny the existence of God or tell them that if they fail to believe as you do that they will burn in Hell.

A public school must accommodate a variety of religious beliefs, not including those that happen to be a majority view or somehow fitting the mainstream. It must accommodate religious views that are inconvenient and strange. It is not the place for missionary efforts or attempt to 'correct' the religious beliefs of students.   

[GP270watch]

This is an exercise of freedom of religion within a public institution.

 I agree as I posted before. I also think the substitute teacher instigated and escalated the situation. Even if the student was in the right, a team of more qualified people could have arrived in the classroom. They could have reassured the student that standing or reciting the pledge was not mandatory. The substitute teacher instead incorrectly dismissed the sentiment the student expressed and basically told the student to "go back to Africa".

[Sestak]

The irony is that the very liberty spoken of in the pledge is what allows students to refuse it to begin with.

So?

[pbrower2a]

This is an exercise of freedom of religion within a public institution.

 I agree as I posted before. I also think the substitute teacher instigated and escalated the situation. Even if the student was in the right, a team of more qualified people could have arrived in the classroom. They could have reassured the student that standing or reciting the pledge was not mandatory. The substitute teacher instead incorrectly dismissed the sentiment the student expressed and basically told the student to "go back to Africa".

There are things that a substitute teacher can confront a student on because what the student says or does is incontrovertibly wrong -- such as suggesting that he can do better in life by dealing in drugs or expressing overt racism. I have encountered both, and in both cases I referred the student to the principal's office. 

[WMS]

Fair enough, and I agree. My response was actually precipitated by it sounded like you started to make up your own mind at the kid was primarily at fault rather than the school.

At this point whether this was maliciousness or just stupidity is unknown, although from what Fuzzy said I would bet on stupidity.

[Badger]

Fair enough, and I agree. My response was actually precipitated by it sounded like you started to make up your own mind at the kid was primarily at fault rather than the school.

At this point whether this was maliciousness or just stupidity is unknown, although from what Fuzzy said I would bet on stupidity.

Tbh, if theres any truth at all to the reported exchange of the teacher telling the kid he could go back to Africa, id say both.

[WMS]

Fair enough, and I agree. My response was actually precipitated by it sounded like you started to make up your own mind at the kid was primarily at fault rather than the school.

At this point whether this was maliciousness or just stupidity is unknown, although from what Fuzzy said I would bet on stupidity.

Tbh, if theres any truth at all to the reported exchange of the teacher telling the kid he could go back to Africa, id say both.

Well on the part of the teacher, yes, definitely both. I was referring to the school district on the either-or part.