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  Labour rebels
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Question: Should the Labour rebels have the whip withdrawn?
#1No  
#2Yes, but only a couple to make an example  
#3Yes, but only the "serial" rebels  
#4Yes, all of them  
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Total Voters: 12

Author Topic: Labour rebels  (Read 1411 times)
Peter
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« on: November 13, 2005, 02:37:47 pm »

Times Article

There has been some talk of removing the whip from some of the rebels, specifically Robert Marshall-Andrews, who is one of the most prominent rebels in recent Parliamentary history having rebelled a third of the time in this Parliament and 14% throughout his Parliamentary career.

As the article describes there are essentially two types of rebels:

The Serial Rebels - a ragtag band of Socialist Campaign Group MPs and disgruntled former ministers. Already, two of the new intake can be appropriately placed in this category. In all, about

The "Bridge too Far" Rebels - the rebels who were simply taken too far on this one issue by the government, and stood firm on principle; They generally have rebelled very little in the past. Four of the intake can be included in this category.

The rebellion over 90 days was roughly composed half and half from each group.

The prospect of expelling the Bridge Too Far Rebels as well as the Serial rebels would obviously lose the Government's majority and would therefore be a very stupid idea, though many would continue vote with the government.

The government could just get away with expelling the serial rebels, but the majority could come down to single digits, and then it only needs a few principled rebels to defeat the government. It would be inadvisable IMO.

Expelling only a couple, like Marshall-Andrews, would be an interesting move - it might lay down a marker to possible rebels not to go there, but it could backfire and have a few of the other serial rebels resign in protest.
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Bono
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 02:46:40 pm »

I don't know what "remove the whip" is, but it sounds kinky.
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Peter
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2005, 02:55:01 pm »

Whip on Wikipedia

Essentially if the Whip were withdrawn, the MP would cease to be a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party and would have to sit as an Independent.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 03:00:11 pm »
« Edited: November 13, 2005, 03:07:05 pm by Senator Al, PPT »

Withdrawing the whip from serial rebels is a very old tactic of the Labour whips and I'm a bit suprised it's taken this long for them to think about it.

Doing it to everyone that's a member of the Campaign Group would be stupid (they aren't all nuts) and impossible (if only because one member of the group (at least she was last time I checked), Ann Cryer, holds an elected position within the PLP) and the same is also the case of all the other serial rebels.
But... at the same time it would probably be a mistake to simply ignore quite how angry most of the PLP is with a very small group of M.P's; this is the sort of thing that could spill over into the CLP's resulting in some very messy (and quite ironic) deselections of leftwingers.

Making Bob Marshall-Andrews a scapegoat (you all know where that phrase comes from don't you? Very appropriate in this case I'd say) would go down very well with most Labour M.P's, members and (especially) voters; the fact that he's been blatently working with the Tories recently is probably crossing the line. There's the added advantage of the fact that he wouldn't be much of a threat as an independent candidate; he's let his CLP wither away and, from what I understand, he's a crap constituency M.P.
Having said that it might be better to give him a very public warning about dealing with the Tories and withdraw the whip unless he stops doing it, rather than just taking it away now.

EDIT: I wouldn't support taking it away from anyone else, unless there's proof they've been acting like Marshall-Andrews. Rebellion, even serial rebellion, is one thing. Playing at being Ramsay MacDonald is quite another.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 03:02:46 pm »

Whip on Wikipedia

Essentially if the Whip were withdrawn, the MP would cease to be a member of the Parliamentary Labour Party and would have to sit as an Independent.

In other words; Peter Law would have someone to sit next to Grin
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Jens
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 03:09:09 pm »

No, reform your electoral system so that you can have the two Labour parties. A Blairite centrist party are a more true socialist party
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 03:11:59 pm »

You were sounding very differently about Marshall-Andrews at election time.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 03:14:41 pm »

Ideally, the whip would be withdrawn from as many of the Labor rebels as possible. Weakening the Blair Government and the Labour Party is decidedly a positive step.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 03:22:24 pm »

You were sounding very differently about Marshall-Andrews at election time.

At the time I wasn't aware that Bob MacDonald-Andrews was conspiring with the Tories; only found out about that pretty recently. Suprisingly enough I'm not very happy about it. There is a line and he's just crossed it.
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minionofmidas - supplemental forum account
Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2005, 03:22:57 pm »

Ideally, the whip would be withdrawn from as many of the Labor rebels as possible. Weakening the Blair Government and the Labour Party is decidedly a positive step.
I say withdraw the whip from those who tried to betray all the Labour movement stands for by voting for that horrific bill, either in the 90-day or the 28-day version.
Does that leave anybody? Nevermind. Withdraw the whip from them, too.
Smiley
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Bono
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2005, 03:54:46 pm »

Ideally, the whip would be withdrawn from as many of the Labor rebels as possible. Weakening the Blair Government and the Labour Party is decidedly a positive step.

^^^^
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Emsworth
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2005, 09:19:05 pm »

I believe that Parliament is due to discuss compulsory ID cards very soon. How likely is a rebellion on that issue?

One would hope that a backbench rebellion is imminent, lest civil liberties be engulfed by the Blairite flame.
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Peter
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 07:23:31 am »

Since the Third Reading of the Bill (which passed on a majority of 25 with all the opposition parties and 25 rebels against), the House of Lords has appended a total of 66 amendments to this bill. I gave them a quick skim read and a number are procedural, but a few look relatively controversial, including one of which that I think is a rather novel amendment of requiring that nothing and only nothing be recorded on the ID card.

It all now depends on whether the rebel masses will grow in the aftermath of the last vote. Emily Thornberry, who I know reasonably well, rebelled for the first time in her career in the 90 day vote. It will be interesting to see what she and the other first-time rebels do. My feeling is that she will rebel in this vote given her occupational background and her close links to Jeremy Corbyn.

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Bono
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 07:24:57 am »

including one of which that I think is a rather novel amendment of requiring that nothing and only nothing be recorded on the ID card.

LOL
Way to go Lords.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2005, 07:42:46 am »

They'll be a rebellion o/c, but probably not enough to defeat the bill (although stranger things have happend).
More interesting is the education bill (which will change the administration of schools by taking powers away from the LEA's and giving them to individual schools). No one (if they're being honest) is sure how that one will go.
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Democratic Hawk
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2005, 09:15:17 am »

I'd got as far as to remove the whip from the serial members of Labour's awkward squad. Besides, it's high-time moves were on the part of their constituency parties to de-select them since it would seem that they wouldn’t be happy until Labour becomes 'unelectable'. It's the same with elements of the Democratic Party. I've no time for self-defeatism - never have, never will

As, to whether, I'd sympathise or support rebels against the government goes, however, that would depend on whether the government introduces legislation that is clearly 'unmanifestotutional'. And it was for this reason, I opposed top-up tuition fees

Dave
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Emsworth
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2005, 01:08:15 pm »

More interesting is the education bill (which will change the administration of schools by taking powers away from the LEA's and giving them to individual schools). No one (if they're being honest) is sure how that one will go.
The Education Bill isn't due to come up until next year, if I recall correctly.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2005, 01:46:49 pm »

More interesting is the education bill (which will change the administration of schools by taking powers away from the LEA's and giving them to individual schools). No one (if they're being honest) is sure how that one will go.
The Education Bill isn't due to come up until next year, if I recall correctly.

True, but it's seen as the big one (devolving power to schools is seen as a flagship policy) and if Blair resigns over any defeat it would be over that bill. On the other hand if he has a warped sense of humour he might actually resigns if it passes...
I'm not sure when the ID cards bill is up for a vote in the Commons, but the fact that it's a manifesto commitment and is supported by the public makes a big revolt unlikely.
It seems likely that the ministers are going to see what backbenchers have to say much more in the future anyway; the backbenchers representatives are generally soft-left types, btw.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2005, 10:23:18 am »

No. Doing so would only alienate more Labour MPs and cause further dischord. Though, given Blair's autocratic tendencies, this sort of thing wouldn't be all that inconsistent of New Labour.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2005, 03:38:01 pm »

No. Doing so would only alienate more Labour MPs and cause further dischord.

It's Labour M.P's that are demanding it Wink
But if it's more than just the honourable member for Medway then there could be trouble.
It's unlikely that Armstrong will even do that though.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2005, 09:18:14 pm »

No. Doing so would only alienate more Labour MPs and cause further dischord.

It's Labour M.P's that are demanding it Wink
But if it's more than just the honourable member for Medway then there could be trouble.
It's unlikely that Armstrong will even do that though.

Is it just me or is Gordon Brown about to inherit a fractured and divided party? A bit like John Major after Thatcher.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2005, 04:34:00 am »

Is it just me or is Gordon Brown about to inherit a fractured and divided party? A bit like John Major after Thatcher.

The Labour Party is always fractured and divided Wink
But if you mean in the way that it was in the late '70's and '80's or how the Tories were for most of the '90's then, no, that's not especially likely. What's happing now is quite strange; almost all of the multitude of factions within the PLP and the CLP's (and most of these are actually organised... I'm told that the soft-left Tribune group was reborn the other week) are becoming united in either irritation or absolute loathing of a small core of persistant trouble makers; this is unusual. Things have usually turned into an out and out Left v Right hatematch by now, that this has very clearly not happend is significant but I'm not sure how.
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