SENATE RESOLUTION: The Recall of Senators Amendment (Passed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Resolution

To allow for recall of Senators by the Regions they represent.

Be it resolved by two-thirds of each chamber that the Constitution be amended, as follows, upon ratification by the regions.

Section I: Title
1. This Resolution shall be titled, "The Recall of Senators Amendment"

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution
Article III, Section II, Clause 1 is amended as follows.

1. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof. Senators shall be subject to recall according to such provisions as may be established in the constitutions of their respective Regions; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein.

This amendment modifies Article III, Section II, Clause I to insert language that explicitly allows for the regions to recall their Senators, provided that the vote has the participation of the majority of the region's registered voters. The added language also leaves the further terms and rules for such recalls to be determined by the regional legislature.

Sponsor: Tack50
Senate Designation: SR 9014

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours to advocate for this constitutional amendment and the Senators shall have 48 hours beyond with which to respond, ask questions, etc.

Failure to comply will result in...

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I have doubts this will make it through the house based on the result last time.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

"Senators shall be subject to recall in each Region, according to the provisions that at least a quarter of registered voters in the respective Region must sign a petition to initiate a recall, an initiated recall vote must require the turnout of at least half of registered voters in the respective Region; and 3/5 of all votes, excluding abstentions, must be cast in favor of the recall; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein"

This amendment, to set the standards for recall, was agreed to on Discord. i would hope that a Senator would sponsor this amendment.

Agreed to by who? Random people in chat? Influential House members who voted nay last time?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't like the requirement of 50% turnout. It is hard to get people to turn out for elections. I wonder if we could get that dropped to like 35% or 40%. Because let us be real here, a lot of voters are only going to vote on Presidential, House and Senate races, and that after you send the 10 pms.

Lowering the threshold is dangerous because of the criminal element as demonstrated in this thread.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also point out that Rimjob took advantage of a pro-regional reform pushed by Maroduke, which regionalized the manner of administering regional amendment ratification, thus allowing them to opt for regional legislative approval.

There will also be hostile elements, seeking to cheat the system.

Strategic Registration has at various points crippled this game, typically via the Pacific by pulling out dissident residents to supply the numbers to go after another region. Most every example of such, has almost always involved pulling people from the West and this is one of many factors as to why the Pacific and subsequently Fremont has always struggled, since they are frequently the ones being strip mined.

If such were to be attempted again, on the scale Windjammer describes, I would aggressively push for harsh criminal penalties for the ring leaders and move restrictions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also point out that Rimjob took advantage of a pro-regional reform pushed by Maroduke, which regionalized the manner of administering regional amendment ratification, thus allowing them to opt for regional legislative approval.

There will also be hostile elements, seeking to cheat the system.

Strategic Registration has at various points crippled this game, typically via the Pacific by pulling out dissident residents to supply the numbers to go after another region. Most every example of such, has almost always involved pulling people from the West and this is one of many factors as to why the Pacific and subsequently Fremont has always struggled, since they are frequently the ones being strip mined.

If such were to be attempted again, on the scale Windjammer describes, I would aggressively push for harsh criminal penalties for the ring leaders and move restrictions.

Except that this is not a crime to recall a senator.

Seriously Yankee I suspect that you will vote for it but REMEMBER WHAT I DID TO THE MIDEAST. Imagine what could be done with this amendment.

The crime in this case would be orchestrating a mass strategic registration effort.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also point out that Rimjob took advantage of a pro-regional reform pushed by Maroduke, which regionalized the manner of administering regional amendment ratification, thus allowing them to opt for regional legislative approval.

There will also be hostile elements, seeking to cheat the system.

Strategic Registration has at various points crippled this game, typically via the Pacific by pulling out dissident residents to supply the numbers to go after another region. Most every example of such, has almost always involved pulling people from the West and this is one of many factors as to why the Pacific and subsequently Fremont has always struggled, since they are frequently the ones being strip mined.

If such were to be attempted again, on the scale Windjammer describes, I would aggressively push for harsh criminal penalties for the ring leaders and move restrictions.

Except that this is not a crime to recall a senator.

Seriously Yankee I suspect that you will vote for it but REMEMBER WHAT I DID TO THE MIDEAST. Imagine what could be done with this amendment.

The crime in this case would be orchestrating a mass strategic registration effort.

We both know it's Never going to be a "crime".

It's a dangerous thing to say never in this game.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also point out that Rimjob took advantage of a pro-regional reform pushed by Maroduke, which regionalized the manner of administering regional amendment ratification, thus allowing them to opt for regional legislative approval.

There will also be hostile elements, seeking to cheat the system.

Strategic Registration has at various points crippled this game, typically via the Pacific by pulling out dissident residents to supply the numbers to go after another region. Most every example of such, has almost always involved pulling people from the West and this is one of many factors as to why the Pacific and subsequently Fremont has always struggled, since they are frequently the ones being strip mined.

If such were to be attempted again, on the scale Windjammer describes, I would aggressively push for harsh criminal penalties for the ring leaders and move restrictions.

Is it a crime to engage in strategic registration? I guess that could be an ammendment to the criminal code.

Also, it's worth noting that I think the fear of strategic registration is overblown. First, there is a 6 month cooldown on any region changes, which should work to discourage any strategic registration attempts.

Second, strategic registration is a double edged sword. Let's say Labor were to engage in strategic registration in Lincoln (since that was the closest region last election). That would mean moving voters from the South (probably losing seats in the CoD) or Fremont (risking their majorities there). Same goes for the Feds or any other party.

The risks of strategic registration are probably large enough for it not to be done.

Strategic registration is completely legal.

And should remain so -- it's half the fun of the elections!

Unless your regions is the one left to collapse because it got strip mined.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look, I am not saying we should resort to such methods now, but we should consider how to mitigate and prevent strategic registration and instead work to promote regional cultures, and strength at the regional level. Strategic registration pulls the competition, pulls the active people out and pulls the dissident voices out. So you are left with a bunch of zombies and a few remaining officeholders.

That is what the Pacific was like after Labor pulled their people out to steal the Mideast and TPP pulled their people out to try and shore up Hagrid (and it didn't work anyway). Two people who hated each other (Simfan and Turk) and a bunch of zombies.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also point out that Rimjob took advantage of a pro-regional reform pushed by Maroduke, which regionalized the manner of administering regional amendment ratification, thus allowing them to opt for regional legislative approval.

There will also be hostile elements, seeking to cheat the system.

Strategic Registration has at various points crippled this game, typically via the Pacific by pulling out dissident residents to supply the numbers to go after another region. Most every example of such, has almost always involved pulling people from the West and this is one of many factors as to why the Pacific and subsequently Fremont has always struggled, since they are frequently the ones being strip mined.

If such were to be attempted again, on the scale Windjammer describes, I would aggressively push for harsh criminal penalties for the ring leaders and move restrictions.

Is it a crime to engage in strategic registration? I guess that could be an ammendment to the criminal code.

Also, it's worth noting that I think the fear of strategic registration is overblown. First, there is a 6 month cooldown on any region changes, which should work to discourage any strategic registration attempts.

Second, strategic registration is a double edged sword. Let's say Labor were to engage in strategic registration in Lincoln (since that was the closest region last election). That would mean moving voters from the South (probably losing seats in the CoD) or Fremont (risking their majorities there). Same goes for the Feds or any other party.

The risks of strategic registration are probably large enough for it not to be done.

Strategic registration is completely legal.

And should remain so -- it's half the fun of the elections!

So much fun Lincoln had an activity crisis so bad we changed our governmental system!

The same mindset that adores strategic registration is the one that adores stuff like the October 2014 Civil Crisis. It is fun for them, fun for the ringleaders because hell hijinks are "fun". Then the police come because of the two dead bodies you don't remember killing.


It isn't fun for the guy whose blood is painting the floor red or in this case, region.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I was the one who pushed to include the exception for such moves of necessity (Siren and Truman) on the move restriction loophole bill so I certainly agree with the point about them.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

"Senators shall be subject to recall in each Region, according to the provisions that at least a quarter of registered voters in the respective Region must sign a petition to initiate a recall, an initiated recall vote must require the turnout of at least half of registered voters in the respective Region; and three-fifths of all votes, excluding abstentions, must be cast in favor of the recall; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein."

Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.


Before we proceed two points.

1. We didn't update the explanation section to reflect this most recently passed amendment, a situation I overlooked.

2. It was noted by the composer of the text of the just adopted amendment as I recall that this text need "refinement", I would strongly recommend that we do so before proceeding.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.


Before we proceed two points.

1. We didn't update the explanation section to reflect this most recently passed amendment, a situation I overlooked.

2. It was noted by the composer of the text of the just adopted amendment as I recall that this text need "refinement", I would strongly recommend that we do so before proceeding.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well, initially this was ammended to create a high threshold, now we want to ammend it to give the regions the power to decide the requirements? These are not 2 incompatible requirements, but I would definitely encourage a bit more of a guideline. Should the federal government set a minimum requirement and then regions can put it even higher? Or should we leave it completely to the regions?

As for senators being elected by state legislatures, I don't think it's a bad idea that the people can recall the senator anyways, it adds a nice touch of direct democracy. It's up to the legislature to appoint someone that is suitable for the region.

Not to mention that no region currently elects their senators through the legislature. In fact, has this ever happened at any point?

The Con-con intentionally left the choice to the regions for the purposes of having a range of tools to improve the elections, participation and activity at the regional level. Legislature electing them would make legislative elections far more important obviously.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Resolution

To allow for recall of Senators by the Regions they represent.

Be it resolved by two-thirds of each chamber that the Constitution be amended, as follows, upon ratification by the regions.

Section I: Title
1. This Resolution shall be titled, "The Recall of Senators Amendment"

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution
Article III, Section II, Clause 1 is amended as follows.

1. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof. Senators shall be subject to recall in each Region, according to the provisions that at least a quarter of registered voters in the respective Region must sign a petition to initiate a recall, an initiated recall vote must require the turnout of at least half of registered voters in the respective Region; and three-fifths of all votes, excluding abstentions, must be cast in favor of the recall; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein.

This amendment modifies Article III, Section II, Clause I to insert language that explicitly allows for the regions to recall their Senators, provided that the vote has the participation of the majority of the region's registered voters. The added language also leaves the further terms and rules for such recalls to be determined by the regional legislature.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Any further amendments and such forth?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think we have a real problem here and it requires something of a judgement call. This is where we are at in my opinion:

1. We can go with complete regional discretion on how to structure their recalls, as that is in line with the constitutions delegation of administration of Senate elections and manner in which such is done. But this opens the risk to massive exploitation by Windjammer and his ilk.

2. We can go the opposite direction and dictate the exact manner of said recall, which erodes regional authority to determine their own procedures for elections while at the same time giving them the ability to recall their Senators.

3. We can do nothing and let the status quo remain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As currently worded, I think the bill is closest right now to option 2.

Maybe we could go with a compromise between 1 and 2? Where the federal government sets a minimum standard for Senate recalls and regions are allowed to make the recall requirements even harder?

Of course we would then need to decide which is the minimum federal level we want.

Yea, the bill is fairly close to number 2, I probably should have flipped the numbers around to emphasize that fact.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Disappointing that responses from the other members have trailed off. Especially so for an amendment considering the level of support that is required for passage.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I will campaign against ratification if the Senate votes to pass the bill as written. The original version of this amendment (which I wrote) gave the regions the option of allowing senatorial recall elections in their Constitutions and left the methods for conducting such elections to the regions themselves. The current text, by contrast, would diminish regional autonomy by requiring the regions to conduct senatorial recall elections under certain circumstances and enumerating exactly how and when those elections are to take place. We worked very hard at the ConCon to avoid this kind of federal overreach, and it would be terribly ironic if the Senate—supposedly the house of the regions—were to begin the march of rolling back that progress.

Well the thing is I am not even certain what level of support the current text even has in this chamber, silence doesn't always mean support.

I would also draw a parallel to the 17th Amendment pre-reset, which delegated the manner of amendment ratification. Even after it was abused, the amendment was largely preserved for a good long while included my myself in spite of the role played by Rimjobbers in abusing it and such forth. Though there were attempts to attach strings and other means of preventing such a thing from happening again, I seem to recall them all being defeated, more so by a collective disunity on the preferred approach (basically what we know call, "Everyone wants reform, but no one wants your/this reform", as opposed to some doctrinaire embrace of regionalism.

Frankly if one were to put money on it, it could be said that the likely outcome for both this and the VP amendment is the same and likely for the same reason as well.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Resolution

To allow for recall of Senators by the Regions they represent.

Be it resolved by two-thirds of each chamber that the Constitution be amended, as follows, upon ratification by the regions.

Section I: Title
1. This Resolution shall be titled, "The Recall of Senators Amendment"

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution
Article III, Section II, Clause 1 is amended as follows.

1. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof. Senators shall be subject to recall according to such provisions as may be established in the constitutions of their respective Regions; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein.

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We are literally back to square 1. This is the same text to what failed in the House.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=312803.msg6653945#msg6653945

What makes the outcome different this time?

It only failed in the House last time because of Windjammer's fear-mongering going unanswered. Plus, it's a new congress, and this amendment has far more support and interest than last time.

Why are we tuning out windjammer considering his history of doing (purely from an elections standpoint) shrewd political moves? Because muh Labor and Labor is bad?

Actually, the problem here is that we have two Laborites making different arguments, and we are basically going to have to chose between which one to listen to. Truman or Windjammer.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We are literally back to square 1. This is the same text to what failed in the House.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=312803.msg6653945#msg6653945

What makes the outcome different this time?

To be honest, I don't know.

But since all 3 regional governments are against the bill as ammended; the only option would be the unammended version that already failed to pass the House. If the House is still against it, I guess they can be the ones to vote this ammendment down (again).

Another option could be tabling this. I'm almost tempted to object to my own ammendment just so we get a vote (not doing that yet though).

Do we satisfy the house, or do we satisfy the Regional officials who could GOTV this to death?

Do we take the advice of James Madison or do we take the advice of John Marshall?

If this is where we are at on the Recall Amendment, shudder to even think of what is going on in the VP Election thread.