SENATE BILL: Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution (Passed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE BILL RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading liable speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.


I have at least one more that I will try to get in tonight, but I am ready to collapse so it might have to be tomorrow sometime.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading liable speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading liable libelous speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading liable libelous speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment 17:13 has been adopted.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Shouldn't it be "information known by the purveyor to be false" rather than "knowingly false information?" Call be pedantic, but "knowingly false information" to me denotes information that is itself knowingly false (i.e. self-aware), as opposed to information which the speaker knows to be untrue.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Shouldn't it be "information known by the purveyor to be false" rather than "knowingly false information?" Call be pedantic, but "knowingly false information" to me denotes information that is itself knowingly false (i.e. self-aware), as opposed to information which the speaker knows to be untrue.

Agreed most certainly.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading libelous speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information information known by the purveyor to be false about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To resolve leaking from private chats and harassment on off-site chat rooms

Be it enacted in both Houses of Congress Assembled,

Off-Site Chat Rooms Regulations Bill

1. Off-site Crimes
A. Spreading libelous speech about another Atlasia citizen on off-site chat rooms-  This crime shall be considered the spreading of knowingly false information information known by the purveyor to be false about a registered Atlasian to at least one other registered Atlasia citizen.

B.Harassment of other Atlasian citizens on off-site chat rooms- This shall be known as the public posting of vulgar or threatening remarks directed or about another Atlasian citizen.

2.Criminal liability and sentencing procedures- The above crimes shall be tried the same way  as Crimes against Atlasia. The above crimes shall have a maximum sentence of a 1 year voting ban and a 1 year ban on holding office.

3. This bill shall take effect immediately upon passage. For this bill to be effective all components of the Resolution in which is a part must also be passed.

People's Regional Senate

People's House of Representatives

Be it resolved in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,

Senate Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 2 of the Senate rules shall read as follows:

2) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's Regional Senate

Be it resolved in the Atlasian House Assembled,

House Off-site Procedures Rules Resolution

Article 9, Clause 3 of the House rules shall read as follows:

3) All proceedings save for when in Joint Session, must be conducted on the Atlas Fantasy Government Board.

People's House of Representatives

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The latest amendment has been adopted.


We have to address evidentiary standards here. I was on discord a few days ago, maybe a week, and there was a discussion about this and the related matter of faking screenshots. It is very, very easy to fake screenshots of what happens on discord. There was even a demonstration of sorts to this effect where in a manner of minutes someone was able to create a fake screenshot with everything but the avatar changed.

So my question, particularly to Truman but also others of a more legal mindset, what is appropriate in terms of such standards being legislated via a statute like this and second what standards are in order?

I don't think we should have zealous prosecution being brought because of a fake screenshot with the defendant then being placed with the burden of proving its falseness.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We have to address evidentiary standards here. I was on discord a few days ago, maybe a week, and there was a discussion about this and the related matter of faking screenshots. It is very, very easy to fake screenshots of what happens on discord. There was even a demonstration of sorts to this effect where in a manner of minutes someone was able to create a fake screenshot with everything but the avatar changed.

So my question, particularly to Truman but also others of a more legal mindset, what is appropriate in terms of such standards being legislated via a statute like this and second what standards are in order?

I don't think we should have zealous prosecution being brought because of a fake screenshot with the defendant then being placed with the burden of proving its falseness.

I don't see being able to vote for this unless we address this issue first.

[Former President tack50]

I can't think of many ways to avoid the problem of fake screenshots. Maybe we could simply not accept single screenshots as sufficient proof? But in many cases screenshots are the only evidence we have.

Alternatively, we could always just take out point A (the one about libel) and leave only the ones about harrassment and proceedings happening here and not in Discord.

Harrassment could happen either through private messages or public ones in a server. If it's through private messages, those can be modified, but you can also block the user.

Public messages on a server would have witnesses, so they are harder to falsify. This also applies to proceedings happening on the Discord (where the witnesses would be the Senators/Representatives themselves)

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

This is exactly why I'd recommend tabling this bill, in addition to the fact that the language still allows for prosecution of jokes and memes. There's really no way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt with respect to discord, which is the only evidentiary level that should be accepted for taking away voting rights/officeholder rights. Screenshots can be faked; witnesses can be biased. If the Chambers want to change their rules, they can pursue that separately. But this bill is very ill-advised if not outright unconstitutional per free speech rulings.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well if we cannot find a way to have solid evidence be ascertained then yes I would think that we probably have gone as far as we can with this.

[MAINEiac4434]

Motion to table.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

This is exactly why I'd recommend tabling this bill, in addition to the fact that the language still allows for prosecution of jokes and memes. There's really no way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt with respect to discord, which is the only evidentiary level that should be accepted for taking away voting rights/officeholder rights. Screenshots can be faked; witnesses can be biased. If the Chambers want to change their rules, they can pursue that separately. But this bill is very ill-advised if not outright unconstitutional per free speech rulings.

I support the tabling of this bill for these reasons.

[Former President tack50]

I object to the motion to table. At the very least we should keep the protections against harrasment and the ban on proceedings happening somewhere else

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

I object to the motion to table. At the very least we should keep the protections against harrasment and the ban on proceedings happening somewhere else

The harrassment protections fall victim to the following as well:

This is exactly why I'd recommend tabling this bill, in addition to the fact that the language still allows for prosecution of jokes and memes. There's really no way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt with respect to discord, which is the only evidentiary level that should be accepted for taking away voting rights/officeholder rights. Screenshots can be faked; witnesses can be biased. If the Chambers want to change their rules, they can pursue that separately. But this bill is very ill-advised if not outright unconstitutional per free speech rulings.

Rules changes should be handled in a separate thread.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I object to the motion to table. At the very least we should keep the protections against harrasment and the ban on proceedings happening somewhere else

The harrassment protections fall victim to the following as well:

This is exactly why I'd recommend tabling this bill, in addition to the fact that the language still allows for prosecution of jokes and memes. There's really no way to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt with respect to discord, which is the only evidentiary level that should be accepted for taking away voting rights/officeholder rights. Screenshots can be faked; witnesses can be biased. If the Chambers want to change their rules, they can pursue that separately. But this bill is very ill-advised if not outright unconstitutional per free speech rulings.

Rules changes should be handled in a separate thread.

 A simple amendment could just delete everything except the Senate rule change if we wanted to. I understand the desire to purge this bill of problematic parts but I would disagree with the constant need to say "just table it and secondary thread" approach, when there is no limit to how much we can amend a given text.

We could literally amend this text to say the sky is blue if we wanted to, lets not make things more complicated unnecessarily by imagining barriers to progress that don't exist. 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I object to the motion to table. At the very least we should keep the protections against harrasment and the ban on proceedings happening somewhere else

Wulfric does have a point on the harassment issue, and it gets back to my previous question. How doe we word that provision itself and what requirements for proof to we include to effectively implement such a provision without unfair or malicious prosecution and without fabricated evidence being used to get people? One can imagine all manner of abuse in such a scenario. 

[Former President tack50]

Fair enough, objection lifted.

We should still try to ban proceedings happening elsewhere though, but that might be quite superflous, not to mention be only tangentially related to the point of this bill.

I agree with Wulfric that it should be handled on a new thread.

[Sestak]

How is this not dead yet

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Can a Senator second Maineiac's motion to table so the Senate can get this lousy bill into the trash?

[ON Progressive]

I'll second the motion to table.