Mueller report thread - Mueller testimony July 24

[James Monroe]

Can we now focus on attacking Trump's odious policies instead of trying to start Cold War Mark 2?

We can chew gum and walk at the same time. Trump's policies are a giveaway to the reactionist Russian government that is everything Trump envisions the Oval Office. Putin and co aren't going to be moronic enough to trigger a new development against the West because of the Muller investigation, they are focusing on conquering the Eastern sphere of which they formally held.

[James Monroe]

Rachel Maddow was openly crying tonight on her show that Trump is likely not going to be implicated in the Mueller probe.

That is sick partisanship.

https://twitter.com/maddow/status/1109464560547831809

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

The only way to get to bottom of this, is what I said in my previous statement, FBI director didnt do his job in asking for the release of Trump taxes. Comey would of done that. Thats why Comey was fired. Non release of Trumps shows collusion with Russia.

The public already rendered a verdict in 2018, by not relecting Paul Ryan as Speaker. Now, we have an unfinished report withput Trump release of taxes

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

The only way to get to bottom of this, is what I said in my previous statement, FBI director didnt do his job in asking for the release of Trump taxes. Comey would of done that. Thats why Comey was fired. Non release of Trumps shows collusion with Russia.

The public already rendered a verdict in 2018, by not relecting Paul Ryan as Speaker. Now, we have an unfinished report withput Trump release of taxes

So Paul Ryan actually ran again in 2018. How the hell could we have missed that? If not for OC we wouldn't have known.

[Inmate Trump]

Until and unless the report is released to the public in full and completely uncensored, I’ll have no choice but to believe the present and his team are hiding something.  This is a report that must be released to the public in full, and if it’s not, then I’ll remain convinced that the president colluded and is therefore a traitor.

If the report comes out in full and without censor, and shows that Trump did not collude, then I’m going to be angered at the time invested in and the emphasis of this investigation.  It was an investigation which needed to be conducted, because Russia DID interfere and they are an enemy, but the constant strong assertion on my side of the aisle that Trump colluded if the report shows that he did not will have been total bullsh**t and I’ll be mad...at my side.

Nothing will ever happen to convince me to vote for Trump. My 2020 vote goes to ousting Trump and I’m committed to that, because he’s an awful president whether he colluded or not. Even if not a full blown traitor, he’s still personally inciting and egging on political violence. His is the worst kind of temperament for the office and he needs to go. So if the report shows he didn’t do anything, my opinion of him changes very little.

But can ALL OF US hold off on conclusions until and unless the report is released in full and without censor?

[7,052,770]

But that doesn’t by itself mean that Trump is guilty of no wrongdoing. “No collusion!” is a shifting goalpost that Republicans have set up for themselves. But Trump can still be guilty of obstruction of justice even if there was no collusion. Why do none of the blue avatars here get this? If he took deliberate steps to sandbag an ongoing investigation, even if it was just because the investigation wounded his ego, then that is obstruction.

They get it - they just don't care. Republicans simply do not debate in good faith in the era of Trump.

[Devout Centrist]

https://twitter.com/mattzap/status/1109506469580419073

[The Other Castro]

Let me know if this is incorrect, but we’ve known since the beginning that Mueller was going to follow DOJ guidelines that you don’t indict a sitting president, so a lack of any further indictments from the Mueller team literally tells us nothing that we didn’t already know about specific details against Trump personally.

[Hammy]

But that doesn’t by itself mean that Trump is guilty of no wrongdoing. “No collusion!” is a shifting goalpost that Republicans have set up for themselves. But Trump can still be guilty of obstruction of justice even if there was no collusion. Why do none of the blue avatars here get this? If he took deliberate steps to sandbag an ongoing investigation, even if it was just because the investigation wounded his ego, then that is obstruction.

They get it - they just don't care. Republicans simply do not debate in good faith in the era of Trump.

As if they did prior to Trump.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Let me know if this is incorrect, but we’ve known since the beginning that Mueller was going to follow DOJ guidelines that you don’t indict a sitting president, so a lack of any further indictments from the Mueller team literally tells us nothing that we didn’t already know about specific details against Trump personally.

Weren't Donald Jr. or Jared supposed to be indicted?

[The Other Castro]

Let me know if this is incorrect, but we’ve known since the beginning that Mueller was going to follow DOJ guidelines that you don’t indict a sitting president, so a lack of any further indictments from the Mueller team literally tells us nothing that we didn’t already know about specific details against Trump personally.

Weren't Donald Jr. or Jared supposed to be indicted?

Nobody is “supposed” to be indicted. You’re either indicted or you’re not. Regardless, I was just talking about Donald Trump himself in response to the notion that this lack of indictments means he gets off without any negative details.

[gerritcole]

Hysterical dems are STUNNED when 45 is vidicated!! Reelection train gaining steam

Also fdr sent the Japanese to camps, really decent man...  but we’ll move past that, dems treat Asians like the red headed stepchildren of minorities,

[Dr. Arch]

Hysterical dems are STUNNED when 45 is vidicated!! Reelection train gaining steam

Also fdr sent the Japanese to camps, really decent man...  but we’ll move past that, dems treat Asians like the red headed stepchildren of minorities,

Posters and comments like these are the reason I don't post as much in this forum anymore.

[Koharu]

Hysterical dems are STUNNED when 45 is vidicated!! Reelection train gaining steam

Also fdr sent the Japanese to camps, really decent man...  but we’ll move past that, dems treat Asians like the red headed stepchildren of minorities,

Posters and comments like these are the reason I don't post as much in this forum anymore.

I had wondered where you had gone to. I do understand the feeling, though.

[Technocracy Timmy]

Hysterical dems are STUNNED when 45 is vidicated!! Reelection train gaining steam

Also fdr sent the Japanese to camps, really decent man...  but we’ll move past that, dems treat Asians like the red headed stepchildren of minorities,

Posters and comments like these are the reason I don't post as much in this forum anymore.

Posters like yfnlucci are why I can’t quit atlas.

Too entertaining.

[T'Chenka]

What many of us have wanted from the beginning is simply to know the truth. What Trump has wanted from the beginning is to keep us from knowing the truth. We’ve known for a while that Russia sponsored a sophisticated operation to interfere in the 2016 election. Trump didn’t even want us to know that much. The American people deserve to know what the scope of the Russian operation was, what could have been done differently to prevent it, and whether any Americans were complicit in it. The simple fact is that Trump has been opposed to letting the American people learn any of this. Whatever his reasons may be , he has been against the very idea of an impartial investigation. That is why a special prosecutor was necessary.

If the Mueller report concludes that Trump’s campaign was not actively involved in coordinating efforts with the Russian agents, then I will accept that conclusion.

But that doesn’t by itself mean that Trump is guilty of no wrongdoing. “No collusion!” is a shifting goalpost that Republicans have set up for themselves. But Trump can still be guilty of obstruction of justice even if there was no collusion. Why do none of the blue avatars here get this? If he took deliberate steps to sandbag an ongoing investigation, even if it was just because the investigation wounded his ego, then that is obstruction.

[Dr. Arch]

Hysterical dems are STUNNED when 45 is vidicated!! Reelection train gaining steam

Also fdr sent the Japanese to camps, really decent man...  but we’ll move past that, dems treat Asians like the red headed stepchildren of minorities,

Posters and comments like these are the reason I don't post as much in this forum anymore.

I had wondered where you had gone to. I do understand the feeling, though.

Yeah, I'm still around every day. I've also been busy completing my prelims, so there's that too.

[Progressive Pessimist]

I wrote a long, depressed diatribe about this in the "Indictment-o-rama" thread, so if you care what I think go read that there. The Cliffnotes version of it is that I now think that Trump firing Mueller and creating a constitutional crisis for the country would have been a better result and that I was wise to temper my expectations of the report. That still didn't help that much though. I'm feeling really down right now. This may not 100% guarantee Trump's re-election but it undeniably helps him. The guy is practically invincible.

Since you apparently know what's in the report already, how about sharing it with the rest of us?

The lack of any new indictments plus my already pessimistic expectations are enough to make me think that the report will vindicate Trump.

We already know more than enough to impeach Trump. He has violated his Oath of Office and the Emoluments Clause. He actively solicited and recieved help from the Russian government to win election. And he, his family, business and campaign, sought a quid pro quo of Trump Tower Moscow for sanctions relief. These aren't things we were waiting on the Mueller report to prove, they're matters of public record. But as Pelosi has acknowledged, the GOP isn't going to do their damned job and impeach Trump while they have any alternative.

What I'm hoping is that the Mueller report will be damning enough to make continuing to enable Trump prohibitively damaging to the GOP. This has never been super-likely, but given what we already know, hoping that Mueller's investigation would produce such info is reasonable. There was never going to be an indictment of Trump from Mueller. Justice Dept procedure was very clear on that, and a by the book guy like Mueller was unlikely to violate precedent like that. I was expecting more indictments of criminals in Trump's circle, but as far as I know, there are still sealed indictments and Muller has demonstrated a pattern of handing off prosecutions not directly related to his directive.

For now, I'll wait and see. But let's be clear - the public evidence of Trump's malfeasance is already damning. There is no vindication, at most, he will not be driven from office. (The cult may claim that as a vindication, but they're deplorable to begin with.)

I'm more worried about undecideds or Trump's soft-support becoming more solidified behind him if the report doesn't detail any wrongdoing. Those are the dumbest, and most dangerous people in this country, as I see it. They're Trump's truest enablers.

I always knew that Trump's base would interpret this in the most self-validating way possible whether that interpretation is "vindication" or "witch hunt-conspiracy." But with the high profile that this investigation has had over the past two years, being equated to Watergate and everything, any sort of positive development for Trump and his cohorts within it may endanger future investigations by the Democratic House committees or even the Southern District of New York investigation. They're going to have to tread carefully now because such a result from the Mueller report may end up backing up Trump's claims of a "partisan witch hunt," even in spite of several Russian conspirators and Trump subordinates getting indicted. Americans' attention spans and capability for rationally seeing the big picture don't bode well for the republic if we don't get any revelations that aren't particularly damaging. All other aspects of Trump's corruption that are already well-known or may become known in the name of transparency or ethics, may just cease to matter. That's why I've been so nervous these past two days.

[junior chįmp]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

[S019]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

Senator Conrad Burns agrees that Jack Abramoff had no impact on the MT Senate race when he soundly defeated Jon Tester in 2006, Conrad Burns is still a Senator to this day

[junior chįmp]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

Senator Conrad Burns agrees that Jack Abramoff had no impact on the MT Senate race when he soundly defeated Jon Tester in 2006,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-year_itch

Conrad Burns is still a Senator to this day

Yes....i hear him and newly elected Bob Hugin, who was soundly rejected by the voters of NJ due to Menedez's corruption, have become great friends in the Senate

[S019]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

Senator Conrad Burns agrees that Jack Abramoff had no impact on the MT Senate race when he soundly defeated Jon Tester in 2006,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-year_itch

Conrad Burns is still a Senator to this day

Yes....i hear him and newly elected Bob Hugin, who was soundly rejected by the voters of NJ due to Menedez's corruption, have become great friends in the Senate

Burns was mired in the Abramoff scandal and it was enough to cost him reelection, just like "Macaca" was enough to cost George Allen reelection

Bob Hugin was a Trump hugger and got hammered for his pharmaceutical ties

[junior chįmp]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

Senator Conrad Burns agrees that Jack Abramoff had no impact on the MT Senate race when he soundly defeated Jon Tester in 2006,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-year_itch

Conrad Burns is still a Senator to this day

Yes....i hear him and newly elected Bob Hugin, who was soundly rejected by the voters of NJ due to Menedez's corruption, have become great friends in the Senate

Burns was mired in the Abramoff scandal and it was enough to cost him reelection, just like "Macaca" was enough to cost George Allen reelection

What factor do you think caused Allen to lose more? The fact his election happened during the 6 year itch with a deeply unpopular presidency with a state with fast changing demographics favorable to Democrats....or Maccaca?

For every reason you list for a specific candidate losing....there are completely opposite examples of where someone did or said the same and still won anyway. What you are falling for is what is known as the narrative fallacy.

Atlas cant let go of this obsession with finding a simple easy to  understand A to B to C causal explanation for election outcomes. Candidate said something dumb -> all voters are totally informed on the situation and simultaneously reacted and interpreted the comment the same way -> voters voted the politician out. Its not that simple. The explanation is always something boring such as the partisan tilt of the state, demographics, state of the economy, etc.... but people would much rather prefer the interesting narrative. This is understandable of course as human brains have literally evolved to seek out and create narratives to explain things.

Bob Hugin was a Trump hugger and got hammered for his pharmaceutical ties

Corey Booker is literally pharmas biggest whore in the Senate lol

[Crumpets]

Some possibilities based on Robert Mueller's alignment:

Lawful good: Mueller lays out the law exactly as it has been interpreted up to this point, clears the name of those who have clearly not violated the law, and lays out the evidence of those who have not been indicted, but may have committed crimes. He leaves the fate of those cases to the discretion of the DoJ.

Neutral good: Mueller hands a significant portion of his investigation over to other authorities (New York, DC, Virginia courts, etc.)

Chaotic good: Mueller clears the name of innocent people, and does not recommend any additional indictments, but declares that Trump is in his opinion incapable of continuing to serve as president and reccomends invoking the 25th amendment.

Lawful neutral: Mueller gives a brief report without a significant amount of information about cases that have not already led to indictments. The report mostly focuses on Russian actions, with little emphasis on US actors beyond Manafort, Flynn, Gates, etc.

True neutral: Mueller gives a completely factual report, but leaves the issue of indictments up to DOJ. He says he supports further inquiry into the matters at hand, should resources allow for it.

Chaotic neutral: It turns out there are dozens of sealed indictments, and as soon as the next President takes office, basically everyone in Trump's inner circle including Trump is arrested.

Lawful evil: Mueller states he believes Trump engaged in serious criminal wrongdoing, but that he does not want to bring charges "for the good of the country" and that it's "time for us to move on." (Comey on steroids, basically)

Neutral evil: Mueller hands full investigative authority over to Congress without making any definitive declarations.

Chaotic evil: QAnon is right. Mueller has been working for Trump this whole time and issues a report calling for the immediate execution of Hillary and Obama for child sex trafficking.

[S019]

Is anyone honestly surprised this ended with a whimper? Even i checked out on following the investigation months ago. Took too long and got boring. Either way, the American voter dosent care about scandals when the economy is good. See: Tea Pot dome, Iran Contra, Clinton's scandals, Jack Abramoff, etc...

Senator Conrad Burns agrees that Jack Abramoff had no impact on the MT Senate race when he soundly defeated Jon Tester in 2006,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-year_itch

Conrad Burns is still a Senator to this day

Yes....i hear him and newly elected Bob Hugin, who was soundly rejected by the voters of NJ due to Menedez's corruption, have become great friends in the Senate

Burns was mired in the Abramoff scandal and it was enough to cost him reelection, just like "Macaca" was enough to cost George Allen reelection

What factor do you think caused Allen to lose more? The fact his election happened during the 6 year itch with a deeply unpopular presidency with a state with fast changing demographics favorable to Democrats....or Maccaca?

For every reason you list for a specific candidate losing....there are completely opposite examples of where someone did or said the same and still won anyway. What you are falling for is what is known as the narrative fallacy.

Atlas cant let go of this obsession with finding a simple easy to  understand A to B to C causal explanation for election outcomes. Candidate said something dumb -> all voters are totally informed on the situation and simultaneously reacted and interpreted the comment the same way -> voters voted the politician out. Its not that simple. The explanation is always something boring such as the partisan tilt of the state, demographics, state of the economy, etc.... but people would much rather prefer the interesting narrative. This is understandable of course as human brains have literally evolved to seek out and create narratives to explain things.

Bob Hugin was a Trump hugger and got hammered for his pharmaceutical ties

Corey Booker is literally pharmas biggest whore in the Senate lol

Allen's and Burns' races were close enough that those two things could have swing them. Burns lost by 0.88, Allen lost by 0.39, it is not hard to think that the Jack Abramoff scandal swung 1% of Montana voters and that Allen's "macaca" comment swung 0.5% of Virgini voters, those small amounts is all that was needed to swing the election. For someone like Lincoln Chaffee or Mike DeWine, or even Jim Talent, you can blame the national environment, also Talent, Chaffee, and DeWine did not make many missteps, also it is not impossible to imagine Santorum losing by 13 or 14, instead of 17, if he did not make all the missteps that he did. Missteps hurt a campaign and sometimes swing elections and with them an entire chamber of Congress.