SENATE RESOLUTION: The Vice President Election Amendment (Failed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President.

Sponsor: Vern1988
Senate Designation: SR 2022

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours to commence advocacy, and Senators have an addition 48 hours to post their initial comments, concerns and questions.

[Vern]

My fellow Senators,

I believe this Amendment would help create a better game play for Atlasia. Sometimes we forget that we are a Fantasy Election game. Therefore, I believe electing the VP separate would make a fun and interesting twist to our game play. I believe this is a good reform we all could get behind. 

[Former President tack50]

I generally like the idea of a directly elected vicepresident. I only have 2 complaints:

1: How much would this harm minor parties? Under the current system, both major parties have an incentive to try and reach an agreement with minor parties in order to secure their vote; like for example the current vice-president Lumine; a member of the Montfortian party.

2: Is there enough for the vice-president to do so that it isn't seen as a boring position? Maybe we could use this opportunity to try and strengthen the position of vice-president. Maybe giving him the right to vote and propose ammendments in the Senate, treating him as an extra 7th Senator? (not just whenever there is a tie)

[Terry the Fat Shark]

I completely support this from both a partisan and non-partisan position.

This would help the game mechanics tremendously, ensuring someone who actually wants to be VP and carry out the responsibilities runs for the position rather than just parties seeking coalitions to win elections and possibly putting someone bad as VP. 

[Esteemed Jimmy]

I urge the Senate to not support this amendment as it would harm very important and long standing institutions in this game. Parties seeking coalitions with each other is precisely what keeps minor parties alive, which is why I’m not supporting this and I ask my friends in the Senate to do the same. The current system works tremendously and we should not be changing it.

I can actually say I agree with all of what is said here. This will harm smaller parties and cause unnecessary changes to the game that won't have any real benefit over the existing system, but could very well cause a situation like Lincoln is currently facing.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

#Everybody wants Reform, but no one wants your reform

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You guys have it backwards.

Separate election of the Vice Presidency empowers third parties because people will have to earn their votes on the issues they care about, as opposed to just plucking someone on the ticket.

 

I urge the Senate to not support this amendment as it would harm very important and long standing institutions in this game. Parties seeking coalitions with each other is precisely what keeps minor parties alive, which is why I’m not supporting this and I ask my friends in the Senate to do the same. The current system works tremendously and we should not be changing it.

A tradition that is built around and assumes that the Vice Presidency can be a throwaway position for the sake of political gain.

That is not the case, the Vice Presidency is a position that is vital to the functioning of Congress and therefore canddiates for it should stand on their own merit, experience and activity.

Everyone always complained that the VP had nothing to do, now it has plenty to do, but as you go down that rabit hole having the VP actually do its primary job of managing Congress, it becomes more and more vital that people are elected to that position based on their merit in performing the role, not because they are a political boss that controls a couple of key swing votes.

[Vern]

I urge the Senate to not support this amendment as it would harm very important and long standing institutions in this game. Parties seeking coalitions with each other is precisely what keeps minor parties alive, which is why I’m not supporting this and I ask my friends in the Senate to do the same. The current system works tremendously and we should not be changing it.

The current system doesn't work. We have had a lot of VP that have fallen short on their duties or half butt their job. This will hold them accountable. I agree with tack, where we could use this to straighten the VP role. As harming smaller parties, I do not see it that way. In fact it could strengthen them because Parties could create alliances with other parties with this. Also, we have to remember, first and foremost this is a Fantasy Election game, so making another position that is elected only strengthens what we all love about this game, the elections.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also just because you run separately from each other, you could still easily form alliances with a third party via a cross endorsement.


Say Labor runs for President and a Peace candidate for VP, they could cross endorse each other, even though they aren't on the same ticket and have a similar effect.

This third party's will be harmed narrative is a complete red herring.

[Vern]

Also just because you run separately from each other, you could still easily form alliances with a third party via a cross endorsement.


Say Labor runs for President and a Peace candidate for VP, they could cross endorse each other, even though they aren't on the same ticket and have a similar effect.

Right! If a party doesn't have the votes to win the President race, what are they going to do to get more votes? Reach out to smaller parties to get them votes via VP

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also just because you run separately from each other, you could still easily form alliances with a third party via a cross endorsement.


Say Labor runs for President and a Peace candidate for VP, they could cross endorse each other, even though they aren't on the same ticket and have a similar effect.

Right! If a party doesn't have the votes to win the President race, what are they going to do to get more votes? Reach out to smaller parties to get them votes via VP

Cross endorsement used to happen all the time between major parties much less smaller ones.

I carried the JCP endorsement several times and even got Labor's official endorsement against Maxwell.

[MAINEiac4434]

Respectfully disagreeing with both my friends on this, you know I both think the world of y’all, but this bill isn’t right for Atlasia and will lead to very big issues down the road, as Jimmy said.

[ON Progressive]

I have to oppose this bill myself. I feel like a separately elected VP would cause more problems than it would solve.

[Vern]

Care to explain how it would cause "more problems"? I would love to hear both sides in detail so we can make a better judgment.

[tmthforu94]

I have to oppose this bill myself. I feel like a separately elected VP would cause more problems than it would solve.

Please elaborate.


This amendment has my support, and I hope Congress will allow The People to have the final say on it. People argue that using the VP position to "build coalitions" as a reason for keeping it - to me, this is a reason to abandon the current way. This amendment is not unnecessary and it has benefits.

The Vice Presidency plays a critical role in managing Congress and requires someone with experience and Congress and the activity/capabilities to manage it. In the past, this position has been used as a way to "build coalitions" and shore up votes to win elections.

This amendment would be a big change, and it deserves a big discussion. For years, people continue to say that they support game reform, but when push comes to shove, nothing happens. Our administration is actively supporting a measure that would give more power to The People and would increase the probability of having a VP with Congressional knowledge, rather than someone who is well-liked being used to gain extra votes.

[Vern]

I wholeheartedly agree with the President on this.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I strongly encourage my colleagues not to make this about partisanship and who would gain what from a given election to try and discern whether this is beneficial or not.

It simply comes down to this, direct election for a position that has an important job to do on its own and thus deserves the people making the choice directly as opposed to an afterthought on voting for a ticket, in which the selection is often made based on who controls the most votes and not always based on who is most qualified to have the job.

[YE]

One could argue that this closes the only path to a presidency for a minor party (something that’s actually not been done in game I don’t think actually):

Major Party/Minor Party elected
Major Party/Minor Party re-elected
Major Party retires
Minor Party feeds off the machine and avoids a 3 way race

With lower long term unity between major and minor party, the final step is likely harder to pull off.

Of course the odds of an IRL 80-92 regardless of party affiliation is low due to the overall turnover of the game so I’m not sure how much this is worth anyway. Or how indistinguishable said minor party would be to the major party by that last step.

I’m just throwing this out there. I’m unsure how much merit the above is worth.

A bigger problem is what would happen if two people who did not like each other got elected President and VP. That’d at least result in the VP having varying roles in the administration pending what they got along with the President.

Also while the VP plays a role in administering Congress, it is not the only administrator. Why not have separate elections for that as well then? Would having an elected congressional administrator by the people and an elected congressional administrator by the body be a needed check and balance system?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It isn't for the purposes of checks and balances necessarily, but it could be to some extent the case.

The main difference between the PPT/Speaker in their roles and the President of Congress (VP) is that the former are largely responsible for their own chambers while the PoC is responsible for both taking the end product of each chamber and then dispensing what thus becomes the end product of Congress as a whole, namely Acts of Congress and Joint Resolutions.

The President of Congress also handles the executive branch's personnel, and thus administers the confirmation hearings. Depending on the rules of either chamber, they can also be tasked with executive branch led initiatives like the budget where the PoC is presently tasked in both chambers with administering debates on the budget resolution (Slot 16).

You could make the case that the President of Congress could be selected by a Joint session of Congress. There are downsides to that as well and my preference is that it be elected by the people, which it currently is mind you, it is elected as part of a ticket with the President. Rather then fundamentally shifting that dynamic and taking away the power to elect the VP from the People, we are empowering the people to be able to make an independent decision on the VP based on its own merits as opposed to an afterthought.

[Vern]

Shall we move forward on this?

[fhtagn]

We have had a lot of VP that have fallen short on their duties or half butt their job. This will hold them accountable.

I dont think a separately elected VP would actually fix this issue.
People will likely still vote for whoever has the preferred party next to their name, or whoever they're friends with, rather than what the person has done in game to qualify them for VP. Just this time they have to list the person separately on the ballot vs part of a ticket.

[Former President tack50]

Shall we move forward on this?

I believe we should wait a bit more, game reform is extremely important and should not be rushed (see: Lincoln right now)

[Poirot]

A lot of discussion was on the impact on minor parties and I guess it showed VP candidates were selected mostly for getting votes. I'm not for electing the VP in the current context because of the impact on the "Presidential team".

A bigger problem is what would happen if two people who did not like each other got elected President and VP. That’d at least result in the VP having varying roles in the administration pending what they got along with the President.

I see the role of the VP as an assistant to the President, someone the President trusts, someone who can take delegated responsibilities to share the work load. That is less possible with an elected VP that is not chosen by the President. If the President and VP don't know each other or don't trust each other, or have very different policies, the VP can't have a helping role to the President and can even be a disturbing agent. It puts the President more alone in making the game function. Why would the President delegate the issue for example of foreign policy to a stanger VP, or help interview candidates for Cabinet position, or even name the stanger elected VP on a council like domestic policy. The elected VP could break a tie in Congress against the preference of the President.

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

[tmthforu94]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

This has already largely been done by the responsibilities that have been delegated to the Vice Presidency. The extent of the VP's role in cabinet/councils is at the discretion of the President via executive order.