SENATE RESOLUTION: The Vice President Election Amendment (Failed)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

[tmthforu94]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

That is an alternative proposal I suggested during the campaign.

[Former President tack50]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

I disagree with that proposal. At that point, we might as well abolish the VP position and make the President Pro Tempore or Speaker of the House interim president. And I believe we should still keep some sort of elected VP of some sort.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

I also pushed this as a counter proposal the last time Lumine pushed to abolish the VP.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

At that point, we might as well abolish the VP position and make the President Pro Tempore or Speaker of the House interim president.

Yes but in the context of the situation at present though, this would be counter productive. At present the VP provides that crucial umbrella Congress administrator that keeps things moving in the forward direction (to the President's) desk. The whole purpose in separate election would be to have elections focused on their merits.

And yes to Fhtagn's point, that is indeed a risk that people will vote based on other metrics, but that would hardly be novel or exclusive to the position of VP and one could argue that such affects the Presidential elections itself and we have suffered at times because of it. The difference is that if a President gets in on celebrity and does a bad job, you can run against them directly and make the case against them and hopefully they win in such circumstances (democracy is about representing the people and people are imperfect so democracy is imperfect after-all).

However if a VP were to be in a similar situation you would have to make an indirect case against the President on the basis that his VP sucked and then try and convince people that he should be voted out because his VP sucked, a much harder case to make.

To get back to your point though, just abolishing the position of VP because the succession is changed, doubles back and illustrates the very problem we have of people not currently valuing the VP for the role the VP does and rates as primary the intangible and discretionary (by the President) aspect of his job, ie the relationship to the President, compared to his constitutionally defined role in the legislative branch.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also since it was brought up, and I frankly expected it sooner, the role of the VP in the executive branch and his classification of such when his primary defined job is in Congress.

Remember this, people often confuse separation of powers with Checks and balances, and think that both require each other to be completely separate in different grain silos so to speak. That is not how checks and balances work, checks and balances rest interdependence of the branches.

I would also point out that for several years, including several pre-reset and all of them post-reset, we have operated under a doctrine known as "Semi-Presidential" or if you look at it the reverse, "Semi-Parliamentary". The meaning of this is that the cabinet members, at least the major policy ones like SoS and SoIA can be sitting members of congress.

[Lumine]

I would like to state I am in full support of this, and find it a positive change that might actually introduce an interesting dynamic. It is simply a fact that all too often Vice-Presidents can be selected not necessarily out of the skills regarding their current constitutional responsibilities, but mostly because of ticket-balancing and some rather complex combinations which have often proved troublesome.

It bears reminding VP selection has been a rather controversial issue from time to time - particularly behind the scenes - and ultimately it just seems rather harmful to carry on with that model if we can instead have separate and more direct elections rather than an indirect or joint vote for an officeholder which has a high chance (in Atlasian terms) of becoming President, and who would benefit from having a clear individual mandate of his own.

Not sure how vacancies will be handled, though. Still via Presidential nomination?

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

I also pushed this as a counter proposal the last time Lumine pushed to abolish the VP.

Would support that, certainly. Parachuting Presidents is not proper, not fair and certainly not democratic, and I still believe special elections would help in the game as opposed to people becoming president out of a series of convoluted scenarios.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We certainly need to address VP vacancies now that Lumine has mentioned that.

As to the other aspects like succession of the Presidency and the name of the VP being changed, and don't get me wrong, I do like them but I would just note that every additional modification to the existing status quo, provides yet another off ramp for someone to get off the yes highway.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well this discussion really died.


We need to discuss  the vacancy situation for the VP as it relates to this Constitutional Amendment.

[Vern]

Well this discussion really died.


We need to discuss  the vacancy situation for the VP as it relates to this Constitutional Amendment.

I am thinking something like “ An special election will be held unless the election is within a two week time period then the president can Appoint someone to the office until the regular election.”

[Former President tack50]

I support Vern's proposal

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

How much would you widen it?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

How much would you widen it?

To four weeks, perhaps? It seems superfluous to have two national elections in the same month.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

How much would you widen it?

To four weeks, perhaps? It seems superfluous to have two national elections in the same month.

Good point, I would be fine with that then.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. In the event of a vacancy with more than four weeks remaining prior to the next regular Vice Presidential election, a special election shall be held in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended as follows:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office, with less than four weeks remaining before the next regular vice presidential election;
 

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President, and special elections for the filling of Vice-President vacancies.

[Vern]

this is friendly

[tmthforu94]

I think this wording would be cleaner, if the sponsor is OK with it:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office occurring less than four weeks remaining before the next regular Vice Presidential election;

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think this wording would be cleaner, if the sponsor is OK with it:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office occurring less than four weeks remaining before the next regular Vice Presidential election;

Shouldn't there be something after occurring though, like maybe "with"? I am not an expert on the finer points of the English language myself but it does seem kind of awkward without something there.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Personally, I'd put it, "to appoint the vice president whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office."

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Personally, I'd put it, "to appoint the vice president whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office."

I think that wording is stronger myself.

[Vern]

So with a new Senate, what do the newbies think about this?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So with a new Senate, what do the newbies think about this?

^^^

Vitally important question as with new Senators, the lay of the land has undoubtedly shifted on this and it is important to understand where everyone is at on both this and the other amendment so we know how to proceed.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

I don't really have strong feelings toward this one way or the other. I don't really think there's a magic bullet that will solve all our problems with gameplay regarding the operations of the presidency and vice president and their relationship with Congress.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

I like the idea of special elections in the event of a vice presidential vacancy, but I don't like the idea of having the vice president elected separately from the president in the regular election.