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June 17, 2019, 09:45:37 pm
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  Libya: Haftar goes for Tripoli
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Author Topic: Libya: Haftar goes for Tripoli  (Read 867 times)
Crumpets
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« on: April 05, 2019, 01:05:17 pm »

Strongman Khalifa Haftar has launched an operation to take Tripoli. It looks like his Libyan National Army had been making some pretty substantial progress, and I wouldn't be surprised if the city falls soon.
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hurricanehink
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2019, 08:53:35 am »

The Libyan National army took the Tripoli International Airport. This could bring an end to Libya’s 2nd civil war this decade in a short amount of time, as the LNA has control of most of Libya, excluding small parts of the Mediterranean coast and the southwest of the country.
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Nathan
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2019, 01:13:12 pm »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
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#TheShadowyAbyss
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 02:37:02 pm »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?

Haftar is what ever he wants to be in a given day.
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PSOL
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2019, 07:00:00 pm »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.
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CumbrianLeftie
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 06:15:34 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?

Haftar is what ever he wants to be in a given day.

Reminds me somewhat of a previous Libyan ruler, name escapes me for the moment.......
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Crumpets
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 08:04:02 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.
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coloniac
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 08:55:21 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

But then nor was Napoleon, yet in the context of the liberalisation of the French state he was a key part of it, all things considered (I'm not going into his foreign expeditions). Haftar can at least play that role more effectively the Egyptian and the Algerian army leaders have done in the past.

At this point the country needs a government Europe can make deals with with a reasonably secular codified legal structure. It can go back to tribal divisions when the migration flows stabilise. 
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PSOL
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 09:03:46 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

But then nor was Napoleon, yet in the context of the liberalisation of the French state he was a key part of it, all things considered (I'm not going into his foreign expeditions). Haftar can at least play that role more effectively the Egyptian and the Algerian army leaders have done in the past.

At this point the country needs a government Europe can make deals with with a reasonably secular codified legal structure. It can go back to tribal divisions when the migration flows stabilise. 
He won’t do any of that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he tries to form a Junta government with sham elections. It is fact at this point that military men never behave any different from the last regime, like ever.
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coloniac
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2019, 09:08:25 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

But then nor was Napoleon, yet in the context of the liberalisation of the French state he was a key part of it, all things considered (I'm not going into his foreign expeditions). Haftar can at least play that role more effectively the Egyptian and the Algerian army leaders have done in the past.

At this point the country needs a government Europe can make deals with with a reasonably secular codified legal structure. It can go back to tribal divisions when the migration flows stabilise. 
He won’t do any of that, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he tries to form a Junta government with sham elections. It is fact at this point that military men never behave any different from the last regime, like ever.

I'm not discounting that, I'm saying that there's more likely a chance that he advances Libya towards modern statehood than similar military regimes around them ever did. Hence the whole "Haftar is the secular voice" Schtick that the media is coming out with. They're oversimplifying but the alternative to Haftar is unsustainable.
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BenBurch
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2019, 09:34:10 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

Most of the world isn't liberal.  In much of the world outside the West, the leftists would be considered socially conservative by our standards.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 09:37:16 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

Most of the world isn't liberal.  In much of the world outside the West, the leftists would be considered socially conservative by our standards.

So, eastern Libya is economically conservative while western Libya is socially conservative?
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BenBurch
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 09:38:37 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

Most of the world isn't liberal.  In much of the world outside the West, the leftists would be considered socially conservative by our standards.

So, eastern Libya is economically conservative while western Libya is socially conservative?

No, I'm saying most of the world is socially conservative, and only "the West" is fairly socially liberal. 
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Crumpets
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 10:04:14 am »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
No, and he never was.

I mean, he is modestly secular by Libya standards, but he is absolutely not liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

Most of the world isn't liberal.  In much of the world outside the West, the leftists would be considered socially conservative by our standards.

So, eastern Libya is economically conservative while western Libya is socially conservative?

No, I'm saying most of the world is socially conservative, and only "the West" is fairly socially liberal.  

Social liberalism is not what "liberalism" means in this context, though. When we say Haftar is illiberal, we mean that he will likely not adhere to small-d democratic norms, that he represses freedom of expression and criticism, and that he will likely not seek to integrate Libya into the global community of nations.
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BenBurch
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 10:56:02 am »

  [/quote]

Social liberalism is not what "liberalism" means in this context, though. When we say Haftar is illiberal, we mean that he will likely not adhere to small-d democratic norms, that he represses freedom of expression and criticism, and that he will likely not seek to integrate Libya into the global community of nations.
[/quote]

Liberalism and "liberalism" are fairly tied together though.  You wouldn't use conservative as a synonym for illiberal in this case, would you?
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Nhoj
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 02:12:16 pm »

Is Haftar still considered the relatively culturally liberal/secular choice in Libya or have I fallen behind the news?
Some of his best fighters these days are salaifis so make of that what you will. But he is probably still more secular than the militias that spend most of their time fighting each other in Tripoli.
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pilskonzept
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 02:53:10 pm »

People's Front of Judea vs. Judean People's Front.

Detached part of the Maghreb vs. detached part of Egypt. really. I guess the "Tripoli" vision of Libya is somewhat more compatible with Western ideals than the "Benghazi" vision, but see Sirte (and Mosul, fwiw - Sunni Iraqis used to be fairly secular) - sometimes it's just a vote with the middle finger.
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HenryWallaceVP
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2019, 08:43:44 pm »
« Edited: April 19, 2019, 09:08:59 pm by HenryWallaceVP »

Interestingly, Italy is supporting the National Accord Government, while France is supporting Haftar. As much as I hate the current Italian government, they're on the right side in this case.
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Cory
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2019, 12:10:44 am »

Lets go Haftar! Secular Stability!
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