Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 20, 2019, 06:00:10 am
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

  Atlas Forum
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Both Sides™)
  Netanyahu Pledges to Annex Israeli Settlements in the West Bank...
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Netanyahu Pledges to Annex Israeli Settlements in the West Bank...  (Read 1407 times)
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,190
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: April 07, 2019, 12:51:35 am »

...if he wins a fourth term.  He sounds desperate.  Apparently, he is in danger of losing:

Israel's Netanyahu says plans to annex settlements in West Bank if reelected

He must lose.  If he were to honor that promise in the event he wins re-election, the two-state solution will be well and truly dead, with any Palestinian state being reduced to isolated Bantustans.  
Logged
Intell
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,710
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: -6.71, S: -1.24

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2019, 02:13:30 am »

ISRAEL IS TOTALLY NOT A FASCIST STATE.
Logged
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 36,759
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2019, 07:43:07 am »

Typical Netanyahu short-sightedness. Eliminating even the possibility of a two-state solution commits Israel to a path that at a minimum means abandoning its pretensions of being a liberal democracy. Moreover, when eventually Israel no longer has military superiority, as will inevitably happen tho not anytime soon, it makes any outcome other than a complete elimination of the State of Israel, much like the crusader states of a millennium ago, pretty much impossible. Still, I can see why he's unlikely to worry about something that's unlikely to happen this century.
Logged
Thatkat04
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 462
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 09:09:27 am »

The two state solution is pretty much dead at this point anyway, atleast with Trump and Netanyahu at the helm. Hell, I doubt a democrat replacement and Gantz would make much of a difference either.

I know many people picture the Israeli settlements as ultra orthodox religious compounds surrounded by walls, but in actuality its more akin to being in a first world European country. Picture luxury townhouses and supermarkets. From my interactions with Israelis, many see them as quiet suburbs of Jerusalem. So, Israel vacating them is pretty much dead on arrival.

Do I think what Israel is doing is right? Hell no. But I also don't think Gantz is going to make a meaningful difference in the peace process. Netanyahu might as well rip the band-aid off and speed the process along, especially with such a strong ally in the white house.   
Logged
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 36,759
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2019, 09:42:27 am »

Except Trump won't be President forever. I can't see how Israel can maintain the perception of being a democratic bastion if it makes a West Bank state unviable unless it integrates the whole West Bank, but if does that then the non-Haredi Jews will be a minority. If that happens, it's difficult to see how Israel can remain a democratic secular Jewish state.
Logged
CumbrianLeftie
Full Member
***
Posts: 206
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2019, 09:50:54 am »

Many of us have long thought that Likudism will ultimately destroy Israel.

Looks like Bibi is doing his best to prove us correct.
Logged
Thatkat04
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 462
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 10:25:19 am »
« Edited: April 07, 2019, 10:32:06 am by Thatkat04 »

Except Trump won't be President forever. I can't see how Israel can maintain the perception of being a democratic bastion if it makes a West Bank state unviable unless it integrates the whole West Bank, but if does that then the non-Haredi Jews will be a minority. If that happens, it's difficult to see how Israel can remain a democratic secular Jewish state.

Again, I'm so sure what the issue is. The Israeli populace doesn't seem to care about public perception or remaining secular. And even without Trump, I'd be hard pressed to single out a current top-tier dem nominee(maybe Sanders) who would actually hold Israel accountable.

As for how Israel would govern an annexed West Bank, I'd hope they'd give the 3 million or so Palestinians in the west bank Israeli citizenship while at the same time giving them full autonomy(I guess kind of like Basque Country).  

Edit: Although looking at it, it doesnt seem like we have a reliable population count for the West Bank. So anywhere from 2 to 3 million.
Logged
Corbyn is a Strasserist
Ray Goldfield
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,991


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 11:38:59 am »

He does something like this every election.
Logged
Santander
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13,469
Taiwan


Political Matrix
E: 3.54, S: 4.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2019, 11:51:21 am »

He does something like this every election.
Logged
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 36,759
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2019, 12:18:21 pm »

Except Trump won't be President forever. I can't see how Israel can maintain the perception of being a democratic bastion if it makes a West Bank state unviable unless it integrates the whole West Bank, but if does that then the non-Haredi Jews will be a minority. If that happens, it's difficult to see how Israel can remain a democratic secular Jewish state.

Again, I'm so sure what the issue is. The Israeli populace doesn't seem to care about public perception or remaining secular. And even without Trump, I'd be hard pressed to single out a current top-tier dem nominee(maybe Sanders) who would actually hold Israel accountable.

I wasn't trying to imply that Israel is facing any short-term risks even with Bibi.  However, on Israel's current course, I can easily see the US going from a supporter of Israel on a bipartisan basis (with the only real disagreement on how best to support Israel) to a country some decades from now where neither party gives a fig what happens in the area. Once that happens I can't see Israel maintaining military superiority over its neighbors. Bibi's fundamental flaw is that he acts as if the present situation is permanent. He doesn't act in a manner that suggests he considers what might go wrong.
Logged
Hugo Award nominee
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,991


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2019, 01:10:21 pm »

Many of us have long thought that Likudism will ultimately destroy Israel.

Looks like Bibi is doing his best to prove us correct.

Likudism might not destroy Israel as an independent state or as a Jewish state but it's certainly going to destroy Israel as a democracy if it continues for long enough. Whoever it was who originally said that if Israel wanted to be Jewish, democratic, and in control of the West Bank then it could choose any two out of three was absolutely right.
Logged
Parrotguy
Wyman
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,923
Israel


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 05:26:48 am »

ISRAEL IS TOTALLY NOT A FASCIST STATE.

STOP TRASHING ALL OF US.
Logged
CumbrianLeftie
Full Member
***
Posts: 206
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 06:13:06 am »

I'm afraid you won't be able to stop people making negative judgements on Israel as a whole if Bibi wins again. All the more so after this latest development.
Logged
DavidB.
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11,736
Netherlands


Political Matrix
E: 0.06, S: 6.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 06:38:20 am »

He does something like this every election.
He says something like this every election.
Logged
Hugo Award nominee
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 20,991


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2019, 06:49:37 pm »

For whatever it’s worth, I have a close friend who’s a (non-Jewish) “leftist internationalist” who at this point privately supports some form of annexation as the least bad of a bad set of options (and this is someone who hates the idea of annexation). She does in fact hate Bibi for his ethical problems and socioeconomic policies rather than “because he’s a nationalist” like Famous Mortimer was saying in that other thread.

I don’t really agree with this friend’s perspective on this, but people with idiosyncratic views on Israel do still exist, despite the best efforts of Blue Tribe Westerners and Red Tribe Westerners alike to make it a partisan and sectarian shibboleth.
Logged
Indy Texas
independentTX
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8,887


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -3.48

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2019, 10:05:29 pm »

The two state solution is pretty much dead at this point anyway, atleast with Trump and Netanyahu at the helm. Hell, I doubt a democrat replacement and Gantz would make much of a difference either.

I know many people picture the Israeli settlements as ultra orthodox religious compounds surrounded by walls, but in actuality its more akin to being in a first world European country. Picture luxury townhouses and supermarkets. From my interactions with Israelis, many see them as quiet suburbs of Jerusalem. So, Israel vacating them is pretty much dead on arrival.

Do I think what Israel is doing is right? Hell no. But I also don't think Gantz is going to make a meaningful difference in the peace process. Netanyahu might as well rip the band-aid off and speed the process along, especially with such a strong ally in the white house.   

The idea that Israel can just annex the parts of the West Bank (I'm sorry, "Judaea and Samaria") that they like/want and not have to deal with the rest of the people who live there is wildly unrealistic.

South Africa tried that once and it did not end well.

Img
Logged
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,297
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2019, 02:23:17 am »
« Edited: April 14, 2019, 02:26:18 am by Velasco »


Bibi will likely want to annex Area C, which amounts more than 60% of the territory including all settlements. The bulk of the Palestinian population is located in Areas A and B, which will remain as encircled ghettos or, using Kafka's terminology, penal colonies. This is an obvious criminal design.
Logged
Tintrlvr
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,339
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2019, 04:14:28 am »

ISRAEL IS TOTALLY NOT A FASCIST STATE.

STOP TRASHING ALL OF US.

There were many non-fascists in Franco’s Spain, but there’s no question that Franco’s Spain was a fascist state.
Logged
Kingpoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,078
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2019, 01:34:28 pm »


Bibi will likely want to annex Area C, which amounts more than 60% of the territory including all settlements. The bulk of the Palestinian population is located in Areas A and B, which will remain as encircled ghettos or, using Kafka's terminology, penal colonies. This is an obvious criminal design.

Splitting up Palestinians up - into over thirty main pieces and hundreds more of tiny enclaves - is not a two state solution. It is doing to the Palestinians what the “moderate, good Nazis” wanted to do with the Jews - keeping them in closed off neighborhoods, allowing no outside interaction or economic development. Netanyahu’s real slogan should be Permanent Poverty for Palestine.
Logged
Intell
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5,710
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: -6.71, S: -1.24

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2019, 02:31:05 am »

ISRAEL IS TOTALLY NOT A FASCIST STATE.

STOP TRASHING ALL OF US.

I said Israel not Israelis. There are many nation across the middle east that are fascist including Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran. Similarly not all Spanish people were fascist under Franco and not all Chileans were fascist under Pinochet.

Sure Israeli fascism is much more milder than all of these, but building settlements in the west bank (whether labor or likuid was in power) controlling the lives of Palestinians around settlements and Isreali territory (i.e east jersusalem) yet not giving them citizenship does account for fascism and is apartheid-like.


I will say however Isreal if you just account for 67 borders is not fascist and treats it's citizens equally however if you take into account settlements, and east Jerusalem it does make Israel fascist and apartheid like
Logged
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,297
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 05:38:19 am »

I will say however Isreal if you just account for 67 borders is not fascist and treats it's citizens equally however if you take into account settlements, and east Jerusalem it does make Israel fascist and apartheid like

Well. the so-called "Arab Israelis" are traditionally discriminated, but they are "privileged" in comparison with their Palestinian brothers living in Gaza and the West Bank. The Gazans live caged since the 'disconnection' in times of Sharon in what has became the world's largest prison, while the inhabitants of the West Bank live under the oppressive military occupation regime since 1967. Israel is still a democracy within the 1967 borders, but it's increasingly turning into a flawed democracy. The recent and  controversial nation-state law can be seen as a decisive step towards the Apartheid State, but on the other hand it can be seen as a logical evolution in a state founded on an ethnonationalist ideology known as Zionism. However, there are many Jewish voices that still call themselves 'zionist' deeming such nation-state law racist and unconstitutional, both in Israel and abroad. In any case, there can be no doubt about the criminal nature of the national project envisioned by the Israeli Right. The question is whether such criminal design is shared by the rest of the Israeli society, or there is still a ray of light somewhere.
Logged
Frodo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18,190
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 07:53:15 pm »


Bibi will likely want to annex Area C, which amounts more than 60% of the territory including all settlements. The bulk of the Palestinian population is located in Areas A and B, which will remain as encircled ghettos or, using Kafka's terminology, penal colonies. This is an obvious criminal design.

Is there a map?  Not all of us know what it looks like. 
Logged
Velasco
andi
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,297
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 08:15:57 pm »


Bibi will likely want to annex Area C, which amounts more than 60% of the territory including all settlements. The bulk of the Palestinian population is located in Areas A and B, which will remain as encircled ghettos or, using Kafka's terminology, penal colonies. This is an obvious criminal design.

Is there a map?  Not all of us know what it looks like. 

Yes, there is a map and maybe you have seen it before

Img

Area C incorporates Israeli  settlements, connecting roads, nature reserves and there is some Palestinian population (the bulk is in Areas A and B , as said before). The idea would be annexing the maximum amount of territory with the minimum of Palestinians. The Palestinian ghettos would be surrounded by the territory annexed by the Israelis. Israel has full control of the surrounding territory already, but the annexation is a step further in the encircling process.
Logged
Representative Carpetbagger
CELTICEMPIRE
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,188


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 08:16:36 am »

Sometimes it seems as if Israel's government is trying to make the world hate Israel.
Logged
Silent Hunter
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 7,759
United Kingdom


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 04:21:58 pm »


Bibi will likely want to annex Area C, which amounts more than 60% of the territory including all settlements. The bulk of the Palestinian population is located in Areas A and B, which will remain as encircled ghettos or, using Kafka's terminology, penal colonies. This is an obvious criminal design.

Splitting up Palestinians up - into over thirty main pieces and hundreds more of tiny enclaves - is not a two state solution. It is doing to the Palestinians what the “moderate, good Nazis” wanted to do with the Jews - keeping them in closed off neighborhoods, allowing no outside interaction or economic development. Netanyahu’s real slogan should be Permanent Poverty for Palestine.

Only if the Palestinians were barred from entering Israel at all; which would be unlikely, as someone is still going to be needed to collect the trash. Also, apartheid in South Africa involved segregation in public transport, toilet facilities etc. That's rather impossible to enforce in an area where Mitzrahim Jews and Palestinians look very much like each other.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC