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  Israeli politics general thread: 2019 and beyond - the dawn of the monarchy
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Author Topic: Israeli politics general thread: 2019 and beyond - the dawn of the monarchy  (Read 1389 times)
Hnv1
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« on: April 10, 2019, 09:13:38 am »

Election result analysis at the election thread. Coalition talks and regular politics from here.
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Parrotguy
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 09:43:32 am »

Nice title. I'd also say theocracy, considering dumb people voted for corrupt snake oil salesmen Deri as the third biggest party.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 09:46:18 am »

The next 4 years will see the crushing of the Supreme Court and constitutional review. Afterwards it will start to get nasty
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tack50
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 09:58:23 am »

Yikes, those are all some horribly pessimistic takes. Why do you have such low hopes?
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Hnv1
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 10:20:34 am »

Yikes, those are all some horribly pessimistic takes. Why do you have such low hopes?
Immunity for crushing Bagatz. that will be the deal. and now Bibi has 61 MKs from it without any pesky centrists.
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2019, 10:22:46 am »

Yikes, those are all some horribly pessimistic takes. Why do you have such low hopes?

Because Netanyahu has never done anything that would elicit high hopes &, as time goes on, he just gets worse & worse.
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Thatkat04
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 10:30:04 am »

Israel is still a democracy after all. I'd like to think the average Israeli would take a stand if Bibi attempted to make sweeping power grabs. Still, my perspective is that of an American Jew. I've never been to Israel, served in their military or experienced rocket alarm sirens. So, I try not to judge the actions of the Israeli electorate. If they love Bibi and want him as "Prime Minister" for life, who am I to judge.
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CumbrianLeftie
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 01:58:26 pm »

Yes we can judge them, just as we can - and do - judge anybody else.

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AndyHogan14
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2019, 02:27:09 pm »

My key question for Likud and the parties that end up forming the government is what the end game is. I am still unwavering in my support for Israel mostly because I place a vast majority of the blame for the current situation on the stubbornly incompetent Arab/Palestinian leadership and that the security of the Israeli civilian population is still often under threat.

That said, what is their solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? A single state with equal rights would not work being that too much animosity has been built up over the years so we can throw that out and it seems as if the two-state solution is flatlining. So, the only two outcomes of the current course is to either 1) annex the West Bank (with or without Gaza) and deny the people living there political rights and becoming everything the BDS folks say Israel currently is or 2) population transfer along the lines of what happened between Greece and Turkey or after the Second World War. Is there any other solution that I a missing?
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2019, 02:52:10 pm »

My key question for Likud and the parties that end up forming the government is what the end game is. I am still unwavering in my support for Israel mostly because I place a vast majority of the blame for the current situation on the stubbornly incompetent Arab/Palestinian leadership and that the security of the Israeli civilian population is still often under threat.

That said, what is their solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? A single state with equal rights would not work being that too much animosity has been built up over the years so we can throw that out and it seems as if the two-state solution is flatlining. So, the only two outcomes of the current course is to either 1) annex the West Bank (with or without Gaza) and deny the people living there political rights and becoming everything the BDS folks say Israel currently is or 2) population transfer along the lines of what happened between Greece and Turkey or after the Second World War. Is there any other solution that I a missing?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-how-israeli-right-wing-thinkers-envision-the-west-bank-s-annexation-1.6387108

This article explores a few potential answers:

- the Bennett plan, which would annex Zone C and leave Zones A and B as autonomous communities.
- offer permanent residency status to Palastinians and then subsequently offer citizenship selectively
- population transfer
- turn key Palestinian cities into Arab Emirates and annex the rural areas
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2019, 03:15:05 pm »

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't make me come across as a problematic Gentile, but I think the Israeli Right is playing a dangerous game in that it constantly seems to attack the diaspora as lily-livered (or even self-hating) even though most of the diaspora are Zionists with affinity for the idea of the Israeli state. Israel as a state isn't supposed to be just "a country with lots of Jews in it" but act as a sort of representative of all Jewish people. I feel like a lot of Jews - not just the likes of Gerald Kaufmans or even Jewdas-  are genuinely uncomfortable with Netanyahu becoming synonymous with their identity, especially as in certain countries the issue has become incredibly partisan.

What I am trying to say is that, for Israel to just not care about the diaspora would be an abdication of a lot of soft power. I would wager that most American Jews, if forced to chose between their affinity with the Democratic Party and a distant nation that implies they're a bunch of effette self-haters will probably go with the former tbh.
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CocaineMitch'sCartel
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2019, 04:30:56 pm »

I have been hearing for the last 6 months that Netanyahu is supposed to be imminently indicted for fraud, what is going on? Did King Netanyahu bully his AG into submission?
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Tartarus Sauce
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 06:49:40 pm »

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't make me come across as a problematic Gentile, but I think the Israeli Right is playing a dangerous game in that it constantly seems to attack the diaspora as lily-livered (or even self-hating) even though most of the diaspora are Zionists with affinity for the idea of the Israeli state. Israel as a state isn't supposed to be just "a country with lots of Jews in it" but act as a sort of representative of all Jewish people. I feel like a lot of Jews - not just the likes of Gerald Kaufmans or even Jewdas-  are genuinely uncomfortable with Netanyahu becoming synonymous with their identity, especially as in certain countries the issue has become incredibly partisan.

What I am trying to say is that, for Israel to just not care about the diaspora would be an abdication of a lot of soft power. I would wager that most American Jews, if forced to chose between their affinity with the Democratic Party and a distant nation that implies they're a bunch of effette self-haters will probably go with the former tbh.

This, I think that Netanyahu and Likud are leading Israel towards a long term disaster.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 01:30:57 am »

unclarity whether the New Right made it in with the double envelopes. If they do make it in it's 67-53 between the right and the rest, if they don't it seems Meretz are gaining one and B&W losing one
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DavidB.
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2019, 05:50:45 am »

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't make me come across as a problematic Gentile, but I think the Israeli Right is playing a dangerous game in that it constantly seems to attack the diaspora as lily-livered (or even self-hating) even though most of the diaspora are Zionists with affinity for the idea of the Israeli state. Israel as a state isn't supposed to be just "a country with lots of Jews in it" but act as a sort of representative of all Jewish people. I feel like a lot of Jews - not just the likes of Gerald Kaufmans or even Jewdas-  are genuinely uncomfortable with Netanyahu becoming synonymous with their identity, especially as in certain countries the issue has become incredibly partisan.

What I am trying to say is that, for Israel to just not care about the diaspora would be an abdication of a lot of soft power. I would wager that most American Jews, if forced to chose between their affinity with the Democratic Party and a distant nation that implies they're a bunch of effette self-haters will probably go with the former tbh.
Diaspora Jews simply tend to have a completely different outlook on things than Israeli Jews. Being part or not being part of the Israeli story of "overcoming" diaspora and coming home is pretty decisive for one's worldview. And diaspora Jews are so integrated in their societies (and yet still very Jewish, otherwise this issue wouldn't have been on the table either) that we tend to adopt the framework of thinking prevalent in our countries and, more specifically, in our own "spheres" within these countries. At this point, the essence of what it means to be Jewish has become something completely different for different communities.

Which is all fine. But when push comes to shove, I won't be there getting dressed in a uniform and going to the Gaza border. Might post something on FB about it from my comfortable chair here in Europe, but that's about it.

I agree that American Jews are likely to pick the Democratic Party and liberalism over their support for Israel. It's even inaccurate to say they pick liberalism over Judaism, because everything they do fits with their understanding of being Jewish (which is terribly wrong and dangerous imo, but that's irrelevant). But this rift precedes Netanyahu and will be there after him, as it is rooted in completely different types of thinking. Netanyahu exacerbates it by explicitly teaming up with the Republicans, which was perhaps the most foolish move in his political career seen from an Israeli national interest perspective. But I think it is inevitable in a world in which politics is increasingly defined by the battle between those who think globally and want national identities to be fluid on the one hand and those who think nationally on the other hand. The U.S. is almost bound to be on one side given its history and demographic makeup, Israel is bound to be on the other side given its history and its challenges.

I think an Israel based on the Israeli understanding of what it means to be Jewish is more important than the soft power (which I think is overstated in the first place) that comes from not alienating left-wing American Reform Jews. I don't think Israelis should compromise on these things with Americans, as Israelis have to live with the consequences and these are fundamental issues.
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RoboWop
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2019, 06:17:41 am »

Yikes, those are all some horribly pessimistic takes. Why do you have such low hopes?

One man's trash is another man's treasure.
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Hnv1
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2019, 08:55:23 am »

The inevitable talks about a Meretz-Labour merger have begun considering their respective sizes are now 5 to 6 seats Labour are going to come to this union with a lower bargaining chip. Gabbay will of course have to leave soon though he is so far quite about it. No. 2 Tak Russo is already planning on going home, With Michaeli in the Labour 6 are almost indistinguishable from the Meretz 5.
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Unbeatable Titan John James
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2019, 09:39:38 am »

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't make me come across as a problematic Gentile, but I think the Israeli Right is playing a dangerous game in that it constantly seems to attack the diaspora as lily-livered (or even self-hating) even though most of the diaspora are Zionists with affinity for the idea of the Israeli state. Israel as a state isn't supposed to be just "a country with lots of Jews in it" but act as a sort of representative of all Jewish people. I feel like a lot of Jews - not just the likes of Gerald Kaufmans or even Jewdas-  are genuinely uncomfortable with Netanyahu becoming synonymous with their identity, especially as in certain countries the issue has become incredibly partisan.

What I am trying to say is that, for Israel to just not care about the diaspora would be an abdication of a lot of soft power. I would wager that most American Jews, if forced to chose between their affinity with the Democratic Party and a distant nation that implies they're a bunch of effette self-haters will probably go with the former tbh.

I get what you're trying to say and there is some truth to it, but Israel is not supposed to nor should it ever be treated as the representative of all Jewish people.  It's supposed to be representative of Israelis.
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Citizen (The) Doctor
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2019, 05:06:46 pm »

I'm trying to word this in a way that doesn't make me come across as a problematic Gentile, but I think the Israeli Right is playing a dangerous game in that it constantly seems to attack the diaspora as lily-livered (or even self-hating) even though most of the diaspora are Zionists with affinity for the idea of the Israeli state. Israel as a state isn't supposed to be just "a country with lots of Jews in it" but act as a sort of representative of all Jewish people. I feel like a lot of Jews - not just the likes of Gerald Kaufmans or even Jewdas-  are genuinely uncomfortable with Netanyahu becoming synonymous with their identity, especially as in certain countries the issue has become incredibly partisan.

What I am trying to say is that, for Israel to just not care about the diaspora would be an abdication of a lot of soft power. I would wager that most American Jews, if forced to chose between their affinity with the Democratic Party and a distant nation that implies they're a bunch of effette self-haters will probably go with the former tbh.

I get what you're trying to say and there is some truth to it, but Israel is not supposed to nor should it ever be treated as the representative of all Jewish people.  It's supposed to be representative of Israelis.

I would hazard that this totally depends on how integral you believe an Israel is to one's Jewish identity. I know some American Jews who very much still see it as the unifying concept for Jews worldwide despite being diaspora.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2019, 08:49:42 am »

Israel is the Millwall of the international community.
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tack50
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2019, 08:56:55 am »

Thing is, it's unclear if Israel is or should be representative of all Jews or just of Israelis. Personally, I don't think it is.

Saying Israel is representative of all jews would be kind of like saying Saudi Arabia is representative of all muslims. Both of them are states with a huge influence in their respective religion, but are still "normal countries".

Compare Israel to say, Vatican City state, which is explicitly supposed to be representative of all Catholics.

Now, a hypothetical "Jerusalem city state" would be representative of all Jews, but that is never going to happen.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2019, 09:21:33 am »

Thing is, it's unclear if Israel is or should be representative of all Jews or just of Israelis. Personally, I don't think it is.

Saying Israel is representative of all jews would be kind of like saying Saudi Arabia is representative of all muslims. Both of them are states with a huge influence in their respective religion, but are still "normal countries".

Compare Israel to say, Vatican City state, which is explicitly supposed to be representative of all Catholics.

Now, a hypothetical "Jerusalem city state" would be representative of all Jews, but that is never going to happen.

A better analogy would be to say that Israel is to American Jews as Ireland is to Irish Americans. It is their ancestral homeland. In some way, they are linked with it whether they like it or not. Whether they support the current state apparatus in their ancestral homeland is down to personal choice. 
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Velasco
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2019, 09:40:12 am »
« Edited: April 12, 2019, 09:54:51 am by Velasco »

Netanyahu (or at least, all Netanyahu's defense policies that the left doesn't like) are already synonymous with Israel. If Gantz was Priem Minister, he would be doing mostly the same stuff and the non-Jewish left would loathe him as much as they loathe Bibi. They don't hate Bibi because he's a conservative, they hate him because he's a nationalist and every Israeli PM is going to be a nationalist.

There's no reconciling leftist internationalism with Zionism. Jews who are advocate leftist internationalism are not allies of the Israeli state and there's no reason for the Jewish state to care what they think.

It's not only the defense policy: it's the apartheid. I concur that both Ganz and Netanyahu are nationalists, but possibly they are nationalists of a different kind. Netanyahu is an unashamed ethno-nationalist who despises the concept of "peace" and seeks -step by step- a reactionary agenda. I think it's clear the State of Israel is following a path that it's increasingly authoritarian. Gantz is a military man and obviously a nationalist ("Blue and White"). However Gantz was still talking about "peace", albeit in very vague terms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Gantz stated something like: "Jews and Palestinians are here to stay, so we need an 'arrangement'". Netanyahu, on the other hand, is crystal clear: he doesn't want peace or "arrangements", only the permanence of status quo (occupation, apartheid) and the progressive annexation of the West Bank. Gantz is far from being an ideal counterpart, but I think it would have been better as PM (for Israelis and Palestinians, not only for the leftist gentiles). But maybe not much better; admittedly I was rather skeptic about him and his chances of beating Bibi at elections. Gantz is an exponent of the militarization of the Israeli politics. Netanyahu represents a step further (way ahead of revisionist Zionism, extreme degradation) in that process of militarization, as he is the exponent of more authoritarian and ethnic form of nationalism. It's not a coincidence that the best friends of Bibi are Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro. As you say in the last paragraph, the reactionary ultranationalists that govern the State of Israel don't need and don't care about the Jewish leftists and liberals. They have a different vision and worldview, clearly illiberal and regressive.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2019, 10:03:10 am »

Netanyahu (or at least, all Netanyahu's defense policies that the left doesn't like) are already synonymous with Israel. If Gantz was Priem Minister, he would be doing mostly the same stuff and the non-Jewish left would loathe him as much as they loathe Bibi. They don't hate Bibi because he's a conservative, they hate him because he's a nationalist and every Israeli PM is going to be a nationalist.

There's no reconciling leftist internationalism with Zionism. Jews who are advocate leftist internationalism are not allies of the Israeli state and there's no reason for the Jewish state to care what they think.

It's not only the defense policy: it's the apartheid. I concur that both Ganz and Netanyahu are nationalists, but possibly they are nationalists of a different kind. Netanyahu is an unashamed ethno-nationalist who despises the concept of "peace" and seeks -step by step- a reactionary agenda. I think it's clear the State of Israel is following a path that it's increasingly authoritarian. Gantz is a military man and obviously a nationalist ("Blue and White"). However Gantz was still talking about "peace", albeit in very vague terms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Gantz stated something like: "Jews and Palestinians are here to stay, so we need an 'arrangement'". Netanyahu, on the other hand, is crystal clear: he doesn't want peace or "arrangements", only the permanence of status quo (occupation, apartheid) and the progressive annexation of the West Bank. Gantz is far from being an ideal counterpart, but I think it would have been better as PM (for Israelis and Palestinians, not only for the leftist gentiles). But maybe not much better; admittedly I was rather skeptic about him and his chances of beating Bibi at elections. Gantz is an exponent of the militarization of the Israeli politics. Netanyahu represents a step further (way ahead of revisionist Zionism, extreme degradation) in that process of militarization, as he is the exponent of more authoritarian and ethnic form of nationalism. It's not a coincidence that the best friends of Bibi are Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro. As you say in the last paragraph, the reactionary ultranationalists that govern the State of Israel don't need and don't care about the Jewish leftists and liberals. They have a different vision and worldview, clearly illiberal and regressive.

Etho-nationalism better describes the Israeli left who favor a 2 state solution with an Israeli state where the population is curated by the government to maintain an ethnic Jewish majority.

The Israeli right are racial imperialists who want to rule over and deny rights to non-Jews in their territory.

Neither policy is compatible with Western progressivism.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2019, 10:06:46 am »

This is true. But many Israelis don't see Western progressivism as compatible with the survival of the Jewish people.
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