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August 24, 2019, 07:17:24 pm
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  Israeli politics general thread: 2019 and beyond - the dawn of the monarchy
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Author Topic: Israeli politics general thread: 2019 and beyond - the dawn of the monarchy  (Read 1405 times)
Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2019, 10:17:58 am »

This is true. But many Israelis don't see Western progressivism as compatible with the survival of the Jewish people.

I agree. It's mostly a delusion that's limited to the diaspora.
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Velasco
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2019, 11:01:28 am »

Etho-nationalism better describes the Israeli left who favor a 2 state solution with an Israeli state where the population is curated by the government to maintain an ethnic Jewish majority.

The Israeli right are racial imperialists who want to rule over and deny rights to non-Jews in their territory.

Neither policy is compatible with Western progressivism.

What you call "racial imperialism" is just a more aggressive version of ethno-nationalism. Personally I think the trwo state solution is unworkable for a number of reasons. Additionally such arrangement is going to be always unfair with the Palestinians, because most pf their ancestral land would be on the Israeli side. Also, I get the impression that some proponents of the two state solution think that they could turn their backs on the Palestinians and live separately. I think it's physically and geographically impossible. Still, it'd be better to try that solution than the nothing, but there's no way that is going to happen. Ariel Sharon stated some years ago that Palestinians would rather have their state in Finland. Crystal  clear.

This is true. But many Israelis don't see Western progressivism as compatible with the survival of the Jewish people.

I think the Jewish people will survive anyway. However the survival of the State of Israel in the long term might not be compatible with the current state of affairs. Israel is a strange body in the Middle East that eventually could be ejected, given the little efforts of its rulers to make peace and cultivate friedship with neighbours. The increasing segregationism and authoritarianism, natural consequences the regime of occupation militarization of the State, are not compatible with western democracy. I'd say Israel is still a democracy within 1967 borders, although it's not a full functioning democracy and the trend points to less freedom in the future. Many Israelis are willing to exchange freedom for security besides supporting ignominy, but they are destroying the future in the process.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2019, 11:14:51 am »

The Israeli right are racial imperialists who want to rule over and deny rights to non-Jews in their territory.
This is a weird argument. The Israeli right is absolutely ethnonationalist (just like the Zionist left) but doesn't particularly care about "race". Haredim sometimes do, but religious Zionists, the group most inclined to prioritize territorial maximization, don't care about race. The word tribe would perhaps be more fitting here.

The "want to rule over" part is also incorrect. It is seen as an inconvenience. People who support annexing J&S tend to support expulsion.

Israel is a strange body in the Middle East that eventually could be ejected
Cool terminology, carrying no connotation with regard to the way Jews have historically been treated whatsoever.

People like you are the reason Jews know Israel is needed.
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SunriseAroundTheWorld
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« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2019, 11:38:06 am »

Typical leftist takes: when we lose, the world ends! If we win, life is good! Life was clearly so good when Ehud Barak crashed the train into the wall.

This verbal assault on democracy and verbal assault on the voters by the leftists is beyond hysterical.


Also, the idea that Western progressivism is compatible with anything functional is hilarious to me. This has been a discussion that has been had for decades. Western European values are the model for the world, if one simply ignores its flaws and its own sins.

I'm hardly as bombastic as DavidB, but at some point, even the pragmatist mushes like me feel the need to push back against this self-righteous (and somehow self-victimizing) leftism that thinks its the lone protector of "good values."



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Velasco
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2019, 11:41:52 am »

See, David, I have read sonething about the history of the Jewish people. Particularly about the recent history of the Jews in Europe. Possibly I pay more respect for that people than some of our posters for the Palestinians. It's a disgrace the lack of empathy. I took the expression "strange body" from an Israeli historian, although I'm afraid that many of you would consider people saying such things "traitors". The modern state of Israel is the product of a recent wave of colonization, regardless the Jews inhabited these lands by the time of the Old Testament. So yes, Israel is a "strange body" in the present geopolitical context of the Middle East. This is neither derogatory nor a call for expulsion: it's a fact. Also, I despise Bibi and regard him a corrupt criminal. Crystal clear.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2019, 11:45:56 am »




Also, the idea that Western progressivism is compatible with anything functional is hilarious to me. This has been a discussion that has been had for decades. Western European values are the model for the world, if one simply ignores its flaws and its own sins.

Acting like "Western Progressivism" is somehow outside of "Western values" rather than one specific manifestation of them.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2019, 11:51:00 am »
« Edited: April 12, 2019, 12:05:12 pm by DavidB. »

The only way in which it is a "strange body" is because it is a society in which people are free, because it is a democracy, because things are invented there, because despite the fact that there was barely anything in the ground people - Jews - made the desert blossom and created a successful, prosperous and happy society there, a society contributing more than its fair share to civilization. This is the difference with the remainder of the Middle East.

People like you are so blinded that you seek to destroy this one point of light in an ocean of darkness - partly by a romantic, naive love for that darkness, partly by that same old type of prejudice against that "strange body" that your own people successfully managed to expulse in 1492, the type of prejudice that 75 years ago made it clear that Israel is not just a nice-to-have but a must-have for the Jewish people to be safe anywhere in this world.

For all your antifascist posturing you sure seem to like Nazi analogies. So get off your high horse and start being honest about your priorities in the Middle East.

The irony, of course, is also that Israelis keep re-electing Netanyahu and the right for an important part because they know too many people in the world think like you do and want Israel destroyed as a Jewish state and safe haven for Jews. This is why a campaign slogan like "Netanyahu: right-wing. Strong. Successful" is actually successful.
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Eli Gorbinsky
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2019, 05:42:50 pm »

This thread took rather worrying direction, so I'm locking it for now before I figure out whether its g or whether we should start another one. Please don't take it as punitive action against a specific poster.
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