Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion Thread
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Dereich
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« Reply #225 on: May 14, 2019, 03:44:10 PM »


Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Tywin as an example of a character who's just as cruel as Dany-- really? What an awful comparison. Say what you will about Tywin, but he was never arbitrary with his cruelty. He didn't enjoy butchery; he did exactly what it took for him to preserve his family's position and nothing more. That's what Castamere and the Sack of King's Landing were all about. Remember when he said "When your enemies to to their knees and beg forgiveness, you must be merciful?" To contrast: when Dany kills people, they're often people who are already at her mercy (her brother, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the slave masters of Mereen). Worse, she does all this while telling people that they're being "liberated," something so despicable not even Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton would have deluded themselves into believing it. Like the morons who enjoy her character, she has fully convinced herself that she is the hero of her story, and this allows her to do virtually anything without fear of repercussions.

Defending Tywin and the institution of slavery is an odd choice. The more I think back through the series, the more cruel and arbitrary actions of Tywin's come up. We don't get to see Tywin's thought process like we do with Dany, so I can't really say how he felt when he ordered the Reynes of Castamere be drowned as they were attempting to negotiate. But from what we do see and hear through the series, Tywin had no scruples about sending Ser Gregor to murder smallfolk throughout the Riverlands, none about sacking King's Landing and having Aegon/Rhaenys murdered, none about hostages other innocent people being killed during the Defiance of Duskendale, and of course none about the Red Wedding. Plenty of the people Tywin had murdered were innocent, defenseless, and uninvolved with the political struggle. Tywin may have talked about mercy, but he was clearly being hypocritical (a pretty common thing for him. See also: every interaction involving Tyrion) when he said as much. Is his complete disregard for non-Lannister life really what would make his actions more sane than Daenerys's?

And I'm not sure how you can argue that Daenerys wasn't liberating the slaves of Slavers Bay without some kind of Uncle Tom "happiness in slavery" argument. You can accuse her of shortsightedness in HOW she liberated the slaves and retaliated against the masters; basically the entirety of the Meereen arc is her having to deal with the consequences of that.

As for her believing she's the "hero of her story" that's exactly what makes her interesting: in many ways (being the last Targaryen, dragons, her rapidly improving fortunes from nothing at the series beginning, being hailed as a liberating conqueror, and seemingly fulfilling the prophecies about the Stallion who Mounts the World, Azor Ahai, and the Prince who was Promised) the universe backs up the idea that she is a destined ruler. But ASOIAF is never cut-and-dry deal and her having to deal with the reality of issues that often directly arise from her pursuit of her "destined path" like her dragons eating children, revenge guerrilla campaigns from the dispossessed slave owners, and better claimants to the throne in book-Aegon and Jon is what makes her story compelling.
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« Reply #226 on: May 14, 2019, 04:14:06 PM »

Jon Snow looks like a moron now. "She's my FührerQueen!"

Next episode he's gonna proclaim that he was just following orders.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #227 on: May 14, 2019, 04:33:45 PM »

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John Dule
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« Reply #228 on: May 14, 2019, 04:44:27 PM »


Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Tywin as an example of a character who's just as cruel as Dany-- really? What an awful comparison. Say what you will about Tywin, but he was never arbitrary with his cruelty. He didn't enjoy butchery; he did exactly what it took for him to preserve his family's position and nothing more. That's what Castamere and the Sack of King's Landing were all about. Remember when he said "When your enemies to to their knees and beg forgiveness, you must be merciful?" To contrast: when Dany kills people, they're often people who are already at her mercy (her brother, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the slave masters of Mereen). Worse, she does all this while telling people that they're being "liberated," something so despicable not even Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton would have deluded themselves into believing it. Like the morons who enjoy her character, she has fully convinced herself that she is the hero of her story, and this allows her to do virtually anything without fear of repercussions.

Defending Tywin and the institution of slavery is an odd choice. The more I think back through the series, the more cruel and arbitrary actions of Tywin's come up. We don't get to see Tywin's thought process like we do with Dany, so I can't really say how he felt when he ordered the Reynes of Castamere be drowned as they were attempting to negotiate. But from what we do see and hear through the series, Tywin had no scruples about sending Ser Gregor to murder smallfolk throughout the Riverlands, none about sacking King's Landing and having Aegon/Rhaenys murdered, none about hostages other innocent people being killed during the Defiance of Duskendale, and of course none about the Red Wedding. Plenty of the people Tywin had murdered were innocent, defenseless, and uninvolved with the political struggle. Tywin may have talked about mercy, but he was clearly being hypocritical (a pretty common thing for him. See also: every interaction involving Tyrion) when he said as much. Is his complete disregard for non-Lannister life really what would make his actions more sane than Daenerys's?

And I'm not sure how you can argue that Daenerys wasn't liberating the slaves of Slavers Bay without some kind of Uncle Tom "happiness in slavery" argument. You can accuse her of shortsightedness in HOW she liberated the slaves and retaliated against the masters; basically the entirety of the Meereen arc is her having to deal with the consequences of that.

As for her believing she's the "hero of her story" that's exactly what makes her interesting: in many ways (being the last Targaryen, dragons, her rapidly improving fortunes from nothing at the series beginning, being hailed as a liberating conqueror, and seemingly fulfilling the prophecies about the Stallion who Mounts the World, Azor Ahai, and the Prince who was Promised) the universe backs up the idea that she is a destined ruler. But ASOIAF is never cut-and-dry deal and her having to deal with the reality of issues that often directly arise from her pursuit of her "destined path" like her dragons eating children, revenge guerrilla campaigns from the dispossessed slave owners, and better claimants to the throne in book-Aegon and Jon is what makes her story compelling.
[/quote]

I take your point, but that doesn't change the fact that all of Tywin's actions are taken during wartime and with the specific goal of furthering his house's position in mind. It's the fact that Dany wants to be loved rather than feared that makes her seem so disingenuous to me (whereas Tywin has always been all about fear and nothing more), and I still do think there's something more unsettling about the way she chooses to mete out "justice." I don't understand her motivations for freeing the slaves-- if saving innocents is what she wants, why did she allow Drogo to butcher all those villages in Season 1 in order to raise enough money for her voyage to Westeros? Dany likes to have her subjects feel indebted to her, allowing her to rule maternalistically, and wants to be thought of as benevolent. Of course, the moment that her people don't give her the deferential, worshipful love she feels she's owed, she has absolutely no empathy for them (as we've just seen).
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« Reply #229 on: May 14, 2019, 07:26:01 PM »

People really need to relax a bit. Even if Season 8 is an increasingly worse trainwreck terms of writing - which is a shame, because the acting has been excellent - no series is worth getting excessively vitriolic.

For all the problems I have with this season, it's worth pointing out Emilia Clarke has been absolutely phenomenal.

Indeed! I've never really liked her acting as Daenerys besides Season 1 and some of the few epic moments in Essos, and yet her performance this season has been excellent. If anything that makes the writing problem even more frustrating, that performance combined with good writing for the season could have been epic.

- I really liked that ShowArya ended up letting go of her desire for revenge and living for the future instead of letting her anger about the past destroy her (even if GRRM probably deserves credit for this rather than D&D) and her calling the Hound "Sandor" was a nice touch

Given how much I've criticized Arya in past years for being a psychopath I admit this was a very nice moment, and a welcome turn for the character.

Threatening someone with death is not "excessive vitriol". It's taken to a whole different level that's not acceptable on any level.
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« Reply #230 on: May 14, 2019, 09:01:42 PM »

I think the "turn" was always a potential ending for Dany, but it was executed horribly on the show. I've pretty much yet to see a convincing "turn" of a good character (I hated how they did Anakin's turn in Episode III), since it's almost always done as a plot twist, so it rarely feels justified or logical from a character standpoint. Yes, there were "hints" that Dany was capable of turning, but it still felt rushed and overblown on the show.

Okay, I'll bite (just to show that it can be done well):

- Michael Corleone in The Godfather?

- Benjamin Barker in Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (1979 broadway production)

- Magneto in X-Men: First Class

- Jimmy McGill in Better Call Saul

- Walter White in Breaking Bad (I'd argue it basically happens over the course of just the first episode)

That's five right there just off the top of my head.  What do those have in common?  It's not exactly a twist.  

I can't comment on all of these, but as for Sweeney Todd, we never really see much of Barker before he's "turned." We see the already vengeful Barker become more and more deranged and vengeful as the show goes on. Sure, that's logical character development, but it's not like we see him go from a strong moral character to an evil one. Magneto's turn(s) are usually at least somewhat developed, but at times it still feels as though he flips a switch, and while some of what he goes through helps to explain why he sometimes does immoral things, at times it feels like his morality just ceases to exist,
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« Reply #231 on: May 14, 2019, 10:11:29 PM »

One of the cool things about the FX was the occasional going off of leftover caches of wildfire placed by Dany's dad.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #232 on: May 14, 2019, 10:25:53 PM »

I think the "turn" was always a potential ending for Dany, but it was executed horribly on the show. I've pretty much yet to see a convincing "turn" of a good character (I hated how they did Anakin's turn in Episode III), since it's almost always done as a plot twist, so it rarely feels justified or logical from a character standpoint. Yes, there were "hints" that Dany was capable of turning, but it still felt rushed and overblown on the show.

Okay, I'll bite (just to show that it can be done well):

- Michael Corleone in The Godfather?

- Benjamin Barker in Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (1979 broadway production)

- Magneto in X-Men: First Class

- Jimmy McGill in Better Call Saul

- Walter White in Breaking Bad (I'd argue it basically happens over the course of just the first episode)

That's five right there just off the top of my head.  What do those have in common?  It's not exactly a twist.  

I can't comment on all of these, but as for Sweeney Todd, we never really see much of Barker before he's "turned." We see the already vengeful Barker become more and more deranged and vengeful as the show goes on. Sure, that's logical character development, but it's not like we see him go from a strong moral character to an evil one. Magneto's turn(s) are usually at least somewhat developed, but at times it still feels as though he flips a switch, and while some of what he goes through helps to explain why he sometimes does immoral things, at times it feels like his morality just ceases to exist,

- Re: Sweeney Todd: Fair

- Re: Magneto, that's why I specifically picked X-Men: First Class.  That's the only one that I think perfectly nailed the change in a very believable way.  You see how he went from point A-->B-->C-->D-->etc.
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« Reply #233 on: May 14, 2019, 11:38:03 PM »

I can't believe how terrible Tyrion's advice has been.  He sucks as Hand of the Queen.  This episode showed that Dany could have gone with her original plan in the first place when she arrived in Westeros: Attack King's Landing directly, rather than "starve them out".  In this episode, she used Drogon as a precision weapon: destroying the city's air defenses and then smashing through the city wall, to let the invading army in.  Sure, in this particular case, she then went on to burn everyone anyway once the battle was won, but that's because she went crazy due to circumstances that wouldn't have applied if she'd done this in Season 7.

By following the advice of Tyrion and Varys, she failed to win a quick victory over Cersei.  If she'd won that quick victory, there would have been no reason to send an expedition north of the Wall to convince Cersei of the White Walker threat, and all three of the dragons would still be alive, and the White Walkers wouldn't have been able to make it through the Wall without Undead Dragon, so a lot more people would be alive right now.
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« Reply #234 on: May 15, 2019, 12:54:02 AM »

People really need to relax a bit. Even if Season 8 is an increasingly worse trainwreck terms of writing - which is a shame, because the acting has been excellent - no series is worth getting excessively vitriolic.

For all the problems I have with this season, it's worth pointing out Emilia Clarke has been absolutely phenomenal.

Indeed! I've never really liked her acting as Daenerys besides Season 1 and some of the few epic moments in Essos, and yet her performance this season has been excellent. If anything that makes the writing problem even more frustrating, that performance combined with good writing for the season could have been epic.

- I really liked that ShowArya ended up letting go of her desire for revenge and living for the future instead of letting her anger about the past destroy her (even if GRRM probably deserves credit for this rather than D&D) and her calling the Hound "Sandor" was a nice touch

Given how much I've criticized Arya in past years for being a psychopath I admit this was a very nice moment, and a welcome turn for the character.

Threatening someone with death is not "excessive vitriol". It's taken to a whole different level that's not acceptable on any level.

You keep bringing up "death threats" made against you that were by people not on Atlas. At least 10 times. It sucks that people suck, but dude, it's really getting old and it sounds like you need to see a counselor if it's bothering you that much that you have to repeat that ad nauseum here as a deflection point for when you get butthurt that people have legitimate criticisms of the poor show writing in Season 8. I'm sorry someone else on a completely different website threatened your life. That is probably a scary thing. But you have repeatedly lumped RINO Tom and anyone else who dares criticize season 8 in with that threat undeservedly. No one on this website threatened your life. So please stop treating it as we did.

No, I'm just a completely stupid moron who knows nothing about anything decent. At least that's the impressions I get from here.

God, I hate this fanbase.
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John Dule
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« Reply #235 on: May 15, 2019, 01:06:17 AM »

People really need to relax a bit. Even if Season 8 is an increasingly worse trainwreck terms of writing - which is a shame, because the acting has been excellent - no series is worth getting excessively vitriolic.

For all the problems I have with this season, it's worth pointing out Emilia Clarke has been absolutely phenomenal.

Indeed! I've never really liked her acting as Daenerys besides Season 1 and some of the few epic moments in Essos, and yet her performance this season has been excellent. If anything that makes the writing problem even more frustrating, that performance combined with good writing for the season could have been epic.

- I really liked that ShowArya ended up letting go of her desire for revenge and living for the future instead of letting her anger about the past destroy her (even if GRRM probably deserves credit for this rather than D&D) and her calling the Hound "Sandor" was a nice touch

Given how much I've criticized Arya in past years for being a psychopath I admit this was a very nice moment, and a welcome turn for the character.

Threatening someone with death is not "excessive vitriol". It's taken to a whole different level that's not acceptable on any level.

You keep bringing up "death threats" made against you that were by people not on Atlas. At least 10 times. It sucks that people suck, but dude, it's really getting old and it sounds like you need to see a counselor if it's bothering you that much that you have to repeat that ad nauseum here as a deflection point for when you get butthurt that people have legitimate criticisms of the poor show writing in Season 8. I'm sorry someone else on a completely different website threatened your life. That is probably a scary thing. But you have repeatedly lumped RINO Tom and anyone else who dares criticize season 8 in with that threat undeservedly. No one on this website threatened your life. So please stop treating it as we did.

No, I'm just a completely stupid moron who knows nothing about anything decent. At least that's the impressions I get from here.

God, I hate this fanbase.

Holy sh**t, stop whining about what some anonymous internet wrongthinker said to you. Can we at least discuss the show without different factions of the fanbase pointing fingers at one another?
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« Reply #236 on: May 15, 2019, 02:43:32 AM »

So, what are the chances that the purpose of the exercise was to utterly destroy Jon's (and to a lesser extent Tyrion's already eroded) belief in the system, so that the formal dissolution of the Seven Kingdoms can be announced at the end of the next episode?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #237 on: May 15, 2019, 08:37:38 AM »

This season is sh**t, this episode was better than average. My take on the Mad Queen is a bit mixed:

I think Dany was convinced Cersei wouldn't yield. That's her whole speech on mercy as weakness from the day before. She will have to torch the civilians because it's the only way. And it's her willingness to do what it takes that makes her better than all the kind people Cersei has destroyed. And she relishes taking revenge for Missandei. And she's enjoying burning the fleet and the golden company. And then the bell rings and she's disappointed. The surrender robs her of her revenge fantasy. And that's when she snaps.

But I do still lean towards it could have been done a lot better.
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fluffypanther19
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« Reply #238 on: May 15, 2019, 03:04:22 PM »

If the leaks are true (and they have been at least 95% true so far) then we are getting one of the most non-sensical endings I have ever seen to a show.
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« Reply #239 on: May 15, 2019, 03:54:43 PM »

If the leaks are true (and they have been at least 95% true so far) then we are getting one of the most non-sensical endings I have ever seen to a show.

Even at this stage, I will not look at leaks ... but this would not surprise me at all. :/
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« Reply #240 on: May 15, 2019, 07:00:08 PM »

If the leaks are true (and they have been at least 95% true so far) then we are getting one of the most non-sensical endings I have ever seen to a show.

Wouldn't surprise me. Hopefully GRRM sets this all up better.
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« Reply #241 on: May 15, 2019, 11:08:15 PM »

Mittens showed off his love of the show and of Mrs. Mittens, by declaring her the "Mother of Dragons" for Mother's Day



Good timing

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« Reply #242 on: May 15, 2019, 11:30:43 PM »

If the leaks are true (and they have been at least 95% true so far) then we are getting one of the most non-sensical endings I have ever seen to a show.

So we'll have Ned Stark stepping out of a shower?
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« Reply #243 on: May 16, 2019, 01:23:50 AM »

I would vote for anyone, even a candidate I disagreed on every other issue with, if they promised to bring Benioff and Weiss to justice for the Sins Against Writing they've committed since Season 5.

By the way, I think anyone who complains about the writing in Season 8 should've started complaining in Season 5, but I suppose I'm glad that Dip****&Dumb*** screwed it up for the casual fanbase as well.
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dead0man
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« Reply #244 on: May 16, 2019, 06:12:23 AM »

Did you all think we were dealing with high art here?  'cause we never were.  This is and always has been goofy elf and fairy, knights and damsels bull spit.  It literally features dragons, were you expecting the greatest story ever told?  FREAKING DRAGONS!  Now there is a petition to remake season 8?  Holy hell people, you're not owed a perfect show (as if that was even possible with you finicky phuques).


DRAGONS!
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #245 on: May 16, 2019, 06:43:38 AM »

Did you all think we were dealing with high art here?  'cause we never were.  This is and always has been goofy elf and fairy, knights and damsels bull spit.  It literally features dragons, were you expecting the greatest story ever told?  FREAKING DRAGONS!  Now there is a petition to remake season 8?  Holy hell people, you're not owed a perfect show (as if that was even possible with you finicky phuques).


DRAGONS!

My understanding is that The Ring Cycle is usually considered to be High Art and that it absolutely features a dragon.

Though you're correct that the books and the show were always... I don't know... high production values middlebrow? Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but pretending that this was not the case, sure, did no one any favours.
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« Reply #246 on: May 16, 2019, 07:39:51 AM »

Did you all think we were dealing with high art here?  'cause we never were.  This is and always has been goofy elf and fairy, knights and damsels bull spit.  It literally features dragons, were you expecting the greatest story ever told?  FREAKING DRAGONS!  Now there is a petition to remake season 8?  Holy hell people, you're not owed a perfect show (as if that was even possible with you finicky phuques).


DRAGONS!

My understanding is that The Ring Cycle is usually considered to be High Art and that it absolutely features a dragon.
a dragon is a small part of one quarter of that (if my Googling is accurate), but you're right, dragons can be part of high art I suppose, but not normally.  I'd guess 99.6% of art with dragons is not high art and most of it is garbage.  Puff the Magic Dragon is a fine song, but it's hardly Bach.
Quote
Though you're correct that the books and the show were always... I don't know... high production values middlebrow? Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but pretending that this was not the case, sure, did no one any favours.
I'm not even sure it rose to middlebrow, and you're right, there is nothing wrong with that.
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« Reply #247 on: May 16, 2019, 09:20:08 AM »

Did you all think we were dealing with high art here?  'cause we never were.  This is and always has been goofy elf and fairy, knights and damsels bull spit.  It literally features dragons, were you expecting the greatest story ever told?  FREAKING DRAGONS!  Now there is a petition to remake season 8?  Holy hell people, you're not owed a perfect show (as if that was even possible with you finicky phuques).


DRAGONS!

You usually put more effort into your posts, but I see you have deliberately dumbed them down to make fun of people upset about this writing.  How ridiculous is it to suggest that *fantasy* can't also be high art?!  Fantasy is set in a hypothetical universe with different laws of nature, but it is not just anything goes.  WTF does the inclusion of dragons have to do with competent writing?  This show WAS high art for the first five seasons - I have watched them all plenty of times.  Season 6 was even pretty good.  Seasons 7 and 8 took the exact attitude you do toward GoT's fans, and that is why they have sucked.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #248 on: May 16, 2019, 11:30:22 AM »

Did you all think we were dealing with high art here?  'cause we never were.  This is and always has been goofy elf and fairy, knights and damsels bull spit.  It literally features dragons, were you expecting the greatest story ever told?  FREAKING DRAGONS!  Now there is a petition to remake season 8?  Holy hell people, you're not owed a perfect show (as if that was even possible with you finicky phuques).


DRAGONS!

My understanding is that The Ring Cycle is usually considered to be High Art and that it absolutely features a dragon.
a dragon is a small part of one quarter of that (if my Googling is accurate), but you're right, dragons can be part of high art I suppose, but not normally.  I'd guess 99.6% of art with dragons is not high art and most of it is garbage.  Puff the Magic Dragon is a fine song, but it's hardly Bach.
Quote
Though you're correct that the books and the show were always... I don't know... high production values middlebrow? Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but pretending that this was not the case, sure, did no one any favours.
I'm not even sure it rose to middlebrow, and you're right, there is nothing wrong with that.

If Pixar can make a movie like Inside Out which is arguably a far higher quality, more thoughtful, and more sophisticated work than Kenneth Branagh's film adaptation of Hamlet then there's no reason not to expect high quality writing from a story simply because it is popular or has mainstream appeal.  Good writing should not be restricted to genres that have received a seal of approval from the same folks who threw a fit when Stephen King received the Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters at the National Book Awards in 2003.  In any case, the first three ASOIAF books (especially A Storm of Swords) are easily among the best modern works in the fantasy genre.  
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« Reply #249 on: May 16, 2019, 04:52:11 PM »

People really need to relax a bit. Even if Season 8 is an increasingly worse trainwreck terms of writing - which is a shame, because the acting has been excellent - no series is worth getting excessively vitriolic.

For all the problems I have with this season, it's worth pointing out Emilia Clarke has been absolutely phenomenal.

Indeed! I've never really liked her acting as Daenerys besides Season 1 and some of the few epic moments in Essos, and yet her performance this season has been excellent. If anything that makes the writing problem even more frustrating, that performance combined with good writing for the season could have been epic.

- I really liked that ShowArya ended up letting go of her desire for revenge and living for the future instead of letting her anger about the past destroy her (even if GRRM probably deserves credit for this rather than D&D) and her calling the Hound "Sandor" was a nice touch

Given how much I've criticized Arya in past years for being a psychopath I admit this was a very nice moment, and a welcome turn for the character.

Threatening someone with death is not "excessive vitriol". It's taken to a whole different level that's not acceptable on any level.

You keep bringing up "death threats" made against you that were by people not on Atlas. At least 10 times. It sucks that people suck, but dude, it's really getting old and it sounds like you need to see a counselor if it's bothering you that much that you have to repeat that ad nauseum here as a deflection point for when you get butthurt that people have legitimate criticisms of the poor show writing in Season 8. I'm sorry someone else on a completely different website threatened your life. That is probably a scary thing. But you have repeatedly lumped RINO Tom and anyone else who dares criticize season 8 in with that threat undeservedly. No one on this website threatened your life. So please stop treating it as we did.

No, I'm just a completely stupid moron who knows nothing about anything decent. At least that's the impressions I get from here.

God, I hate this fanbase.

me me Me mE ME

Good job on not actually responding to anything. Not that I should expect anything different at this point.
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