Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion Thread

[John Dule]

Two years ago I was skeptical that they were going the "Mad Queen" route with Dany, because I've always hated her character and I figured that the writers were going to put her on the throne at the end for #GirlPower points. Now, I'm convinced she's going to go insane, die, and in the process destroy the Iron Throne somehow. I'll bump this comment in two weeks.

[John Dule]

I think the problem here is that the writers have been """hinting""" that Daenerys is an evil tyrant for eight seasons, but the portion of the fanbase that loves her is too stupid (and has had its mind warped by female empowerment platitudes too much) to understand what they're being shown. From her first scene in the show, Dany has been nothing but an egomaniacal sociopath with no emotions whose only joy comes from watching people she dislikes burn alive. I wonder, has there been a single moment since Season 1 in which any of you think she showed genuine emotion? Even when she talks to her friends/subordinates/subjects, she always comes across as dishonest (of course, this may be due to Emilia Clarke's acting skills, which are virtually nonexistent). When she smiles, it's always out of malice or manipulation-- have you forgotten when she "didn't feel anything at all" after leaving the man she loved in Mereen back in Season 6?

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Tywin as an example of a character who's just as cruel as Dany-- really? What an awful comparison. Say what you will about Tywin, but he was never arbitrary with his cruelty. He didn't enjoy butchery; he did exactly what it took for him to preserve his family's position and nothing more. That's what Castamere and the Sack of King's Landing were all about. Remember when he said "When your enemies to to their knees and beg forgiveness, you must be merciful?" To contrast: when Dany kills people, they're often people who are already at her mercy (her brother, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the slave masters of Mereen). Worse, she does all this while telling people that they're being "liberated," something so despicable not even Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton would have deluded themselves into believing it. Like the morons who enjoy her character, she has fully convinced herself that she is the hero of her story, and this allows her to do virtually anything without fear of repercussions.

For some unfathomable reason, people have latched onto Daenerys as the "strong female character" in this show (a show which, mind you, includes Sansa and Arya Stark, Brienne of Tarth, Cersei Lannister, Catelyn, Yara Greyjoy, Ygritte, etc), naming their kids "Khaleesi" and constantly fashioning new ways to justify her war crimes. Well, there's no recovering from this one. These woke psychos are going to have to face the reality that their queen is and always has been an awful person and an even worse character.

[John Dule]

Having Daenerys indiscriminately slaughter the people of King's Landing via dragon fire was rather jarring, to say the least. It would have been more interesting, and in character, if she had the city sacked instead. The outcome would be the same, but the ensuing discussion (might) be more productive, as the fanbase would be divided in defending* or criticizing her.

*and there would be no shortage of people defending her

I disagree personally. This felt completely in character for someone who has violent tendencies and no one to hold her back. Been on the receiving end of people like that. Not a pleasant experience, let me tell you.

Of course it felt a bit rushed. Everything in the season has. Like I said, they're working from a basic bullet point list of how things end, and we're essentially seeing that list checked off because they have no idea how to fill in the gaps. Can't blame them for that.

The bolded is bullshlt.  Daenerys has displayed an undertone of ruthless behavior, but she has NEVER, ever displayed an indifference to - let alone a desire to play an active role in - the murder of innocents.  Literally everyone Dany has ever treated in a quasi-"Mad Queen" way had it coming.  She burnt a witch alive who murdered her husband and unborn child.  She crucified slavers who crucified children.  Heck, she chained up her dragons because they killed a child; she has displayed a basic kindness underneath even if she has wild impulses.

Has Dany done anything throughout this story that is any more "mad" than any other ruler?  Ned Stark beheaded someone for fleeing the White Walkers and trying to warn people in the South about a totally irrelevant sideshow the threat to the north.  Jon hanged an elementary school aged kid who was probably manipulated by grown men into betraying Jon.  If Dany's actions so far have *actually* foreshadowed to you that she was capable of committing genocide on King's Landing, then so have the actions of Tywin, Stannis, Robert, etc.  She clearly has an unhinged streak, and they could have easily done the fulfillment of this foreshadowing well.  They didn't.  Have Cersei refuse to surrender and have Dany refuse to take the high road and go light up the Red Keep.  You still get the spectacle, you still get the action, you still get Dany *going Mad Queen* but you don't get a total character assassination that makes zero sense.

I don't doubt that GRRM will have Dany go down this route in the books, but I guarantee you it won't be the flip of a switch like that.  Say what you want about the season being rushed, but this is just lazy writing at this point.  They're ready for Star Wars.  Lastly, I will leave a YouTube review that I think properly sums up how shallow and surface level this once great show has become:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIr77g4082w

You uh . . . Haven't been paying a moment of attention to anything I've said, have you?

It will happen in the books. You know why? Because Martin has literally given them a bullet point list of what is going to happen. You should know this by now. I know I've been saying it ad nauseam. But it takes longer than one sentence to say, so therefore it's invalid.

I am really growing to hate this fanbase more and more each day.

"I don't doubt that GRRM will have Dany go down this route in the books, but I guarantee you it won't be the flip of a switch like that."  What about this sentence gives you the idea that I "missed" that GRRM will have this happen in the books?  As you have said *ad nauseam*, they were given very basic bullet points by GRRM - ala Dany will light up King's Landing and the White Walkers will be defeated ... the problem, as has also been said *ad nauseam* is D&D are so ing awful that they can't work with just bullet points to make a good story; they need the whole thing spelled out for them, as it was for the first five seasons.  Surely, you can see the semantics in the TONS of different ways Dany could have lit up King's Landing, and I refuse to believe you don't think it could have been done in a more emotionally satisfying way consistent with her character arc and past actions.

Dude, I am starting to think you ARE D&D ... for several reasons.

Think whatever the f**k you like of me. But when one side has been threatening to kill me over my opinion of season 8, what do you think my reaction is gonna be?

And stop pretending Martin is this writing God. He's not. You know why the last couple of books have taken ages to release? Because he wrote himself into a plot pit. He said he was going to have them all finished,  and I refuse to pin the blame on the producers who signed on to adapt a book series.

You don't have to be a "writing God" to acknowledge that this series has had major problems since it started going off the books.

[John Dule]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Tywin as an example of a character who's just as cruel as Dany-- really? What an awful comparison. Say what you will about Tywin, but he was never arbitrary with his cruelty. He didn't enjoy butchery; he did exactly what it took for him to preserve his family's position and nothing more. That's what Castamere and the Sack of King's Landing were all about. Remember when he said "When your enemies to to their knees and beg forgiveness, you must be merciful?" To contrast: when Dany kills people, they're often people who are already at her mercy (her brother, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the slave masters of Mereen). Worse, she does all this while telling people that they're being "liberated," something so despicable not even Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton would have deluded themselves into believing it. Like the morons who enjoy her character, she has fully convinced herself that she is the hero of her story, and this allows her to do virtually anything without fear of repercussions.

Defending Tywin and the institution of slavery is an odd choice. The more I think back through the series, the more cruel and arbitrary actions of Tywin's come up. We don't get to see Tywin's thought process like we do with Dany, so I can't really say how he felt when he ordered the Reynes of Castamere be drowned as they were attempting to negotiate. But from what we do see and hear through the series, Tywin had no scruples about sending Ser Gregor to murder smallfolk throughout the Riverlands, none about sacking King's Landing and having Aegon/Rhaenys murdered, none about hostages other innocent people being killed during the Defiance of Duskendale, and of course none about the Red Wedding. Plenty of the people Tywin had murdered were innocent, defenseless, and uninvolved with the political struggle. Tywin may have talked about mercy, but he was clearly being hypocritical (a pretty common thing for him. See also: every interaction involving Tyrion) when he said as much. Is his complete disregard for non-Lannister life really what would make his actions more sane than Daenerys's?

And I'm not sure how you can argue that Daenerys wasn't liberating the slaves of Slavers Bay without some kind of Uncle Tom "happiness in slavery" argument. You can accuse her of shortsightedness in HOW she liberated the slaves and retaliated against the masters; basically the entirety of the Meereen arc is her having to deal with the consequences of that.

As for her believing she's the "hero of her story" that's exactly what makes her interesting: in many ways (being the last Targaryen, dragons, her rapidly improving fortunes from nothing at the series beginning, being hailed as a liberating conqueror, and seemingly fulfilling the prophecies about the Stallion who Mounts the World, Azor Ahai, and the Prince who was Promised) the universe backs up the idea that she is a destined ruler. But ASOIAF is never cut-and-dry deal and her having to deal with the reality of issues that often directly arise from her pursuit of her "destined path" like her dragons eating children, revenge guerrilla campaigns from the dispossessed slave owners, and better claimants to the throne in book-Aegon and Jon is what makes her story compelling.
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I take your point, but that doesn't change the fact that all of Tywin's actions are taken during wartime and with the specific goal of furthering his house's position in mind. It's the fact that Dany wants to be loved rather than feared that makes her seem so disingenuous to me (whereas Tywin has always been all about fear and nothing more), and I still do think there's something more unsettling about the way she chooses to mete out "justice." I don't understand her motivations for freeing the slaves-- if saving innocents is what she wants, why did she allow Drogo to butcher all those villages in Season 1 in order to raise enough money for her voyage to Westeros? Dany likes to have her subjects feel indebted to her, allowing her to rule maternalistically, and wants to be thought of as benevolent. Of course, the moment that her people don't give her the deferential, worshipful love she feels she's owed, she has absolutely no empathy for them (as we've just seen).

[John Dule]

People really need to relax a bit. Even if Season 8 is an increasingly worse trainwreck terms of writing - which is a shame, because the acting has been excellent - no series is worth getting excessively vitriolic.

For all the problems I have with this season, it's worth pointing out Emilia Clarke has been absolutely phenomenal.

Indeed! I've never really liked her acting as Daenerys besides Season 1 and some of the few epic moments in Essos, and yet her performance this season has been excellent. If anything that makes the writing problem even more frustrating, that performance combined with good writing for the season could have been epic.

- I really liked that ShowArya ended up letting go of her desire for revenge and living for the future instead of letting her anger about the past destroy her (even if GRRM probably deserves credit for this rather than D&D) and her calling the Hound "Sandor" was a nice touch

Given how much I've criticized Arya in past years for being a psychopath I admit this was a very nice moment, and a welcome turn for the character.

Threatening someone with death is not "excessive vitriol". It's taken to a whole different level that's not acceptable on any level.

You keep bringing up "death threats" made against you that were by people not on Atlas. At least 10 times. It sucks that people suck, but dude, it's really getting old and it sounds like you need to see a counselor if it's bothering you that much that you have to repeat that ad nauseum here as a deflection point for when you get butthurt that people have legitimate criticisms of the poor show writing in Season 8. I'm sorry someone else on a completely different website threatened your life. That is probably a scary thing. But you have repeatedly lumped RINO Tom and anyone else who dares criticize season 8 in with that threat undeservedly. No one on this website threatened your life. So please stop treating it as we did.

No, I'm just a completely stupid moron who knows nothing about anything decent. At least that's the impressions I get from here.

God, I hate this fanbase.

Holy sh**t, stop whining about what some anonymous internet wrongthinker said to you. Can we at least discuss the show without different factions of the fanbase pointing fingers at one another?

[John Dule]

Worth noting that Emilia Clarke prepared for that famous speech by Daenerys Targaryen after the (Second) Sack of Kings Landing by watching speeches by famous historical figures, including Adolf Hitler:

Worth thinking about....  

Really wondering how the people who named their kids "Khaleesi" will take this.