Notre Dame is burning.

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Accidentally I've been just re-reading Victor Hugo, thinking I must go and see the Notre Dame when I have a chance.

Heartbreaking. Sad day.

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Twitter's already full of idiots trying to spin it in a known way.

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Guys, please refrain from trying to spin it one way or the other to fit one's ideological message. This thread's been very respectful so far and I'd like to keep it this way.

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Guys, please refrain from trying to spin it one way or the other to fit one's ideological message. This thread's been very respectful so far and I'd like to keep it this way.

I really take issue with you deleting my post. I don't see how my post violates the TOS. Perhaps you can explain to me why? Otherwise I will e-mail Dave about it. If only atheists are welcome on this forum perhaps he can tell me why.

Religion is not the issue here. I'll repost the part in question:

Doesn't "feel" all that different from the umpteenth attack there either. Perhaps also a morbid sign from God about what's happening to Western civilization these days - particularly in France, more particularly in Paris.

The dog-whistling here is obvious. The same would go for somebody using the fire to attack the right or people of faith.

You're free to email Dave, because I'm standing by my action.

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With all the irreperable loss let's just be grateful the structure is saved. It would be absolutely heathwrenching to see Paris without Notre Dame.

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This is absolutely terrible, but it looks like it won't be as catastrophic as originally predicted. They seemed to be indicating they thought the whole structure would be lost just two hours ago. Losing the spires and the stain-glassed windows is a huge blow, though. Very sad, but thankfully the structure as a whole has survived.

I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

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I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

A Cathedral is a living building; there's no reason why it cannot be a restoration of a restoration (as it would be: and almost certainly will be). The memory, meaning and history lost won't be replaceable and it won't be as good - even if we ignore the difficulties of replicating techniques of the Middle Ages, even replicating those used in the great restoration of the 19th century will be hard going - but it will still be Notre-Dame, the great Cathedral of Paris. Consider the rebuilding of Reims Cathedral a century ago now.

You're right. I posted this because I'm admittedly not very familiar with the business of reconstruction of really old and historically invaluable objects, items. I overlooked the spiritual factor too.

Now that you've mentioned all this, I'm reminded of people wondering whether there was any point of rebuilding Warsaw, or at least its historical parts. Not so long ago I actually had a conversation with an old man raised in pre-1944 Warsaw, who can't stand the reconstructed Old Town because it's artificial for him. But he too admitted it was a correct decision to rebuild. There were plans to just move capital to Łodź on a permanent basis and leave the rabbles as a reminder, but the rabbles were still Warsaw.

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This is absolutely terrible, but it looks like it won't be as catastrophic as originally predicted. They seemed to be indicating they thought the whole structure would be lost just two hours ago. Losing the spires and the stain-glassed windows is a huge blow, though. Very sad, but thankfully the structure as a whole has survived.

I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

Seeing from the TV images, it seems that the vaults of the cathedral have survived almost intact, although i'm not quite sure about that.    

Some parts of the vaults have colapsed, but the majority seems intact.
https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1117919759511826432

Wonderful!

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This is absolutely terrible, but it looks like it won't be as catastrophic as originally predicted. They seemed to be indicating they thought the whole structure would be lost just two hours ago. Losing the spires and the stain-glassed windows is a huge blow, though. Very sad, but thankfully the structure as a whole has survived.

I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

Why would it seem artificial? So many churches have burned down over the centuries and have been rebuilt perfectly and beautifully. Turning it into a museum means accepting to close the chapter on this church and, by extension, on Paris' and France's Christian identity. Which would seem completely unacceptable to me. In that case, it would not just be a metaphor for European civilization burning (fully expecting this to be deleted again) - it would literally be that.

You're right. It's important for such symbols to endure. While writting this post I've been under the impression the interior is completely lost and forgot about long history of rebuilding ruined landmarks.

If the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John was destroyed (it already was destroyed once, in 1944), I most likely wouldn't entertain any other thought than rebuilding.

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Far more of the interior structure has survived than seemed plausible a couple of hours ago. Quite the credit to the original builders, and the 19th century restorers too.

It's crazy to think just hours ago most of us thing that even if the structure somehow holds, there's nothing left of the interior. A great relief.

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This is absolutely terrible, but it looks like it won't be as catastrophic as originally predicted. They seemed to be indicating they thought the whole structure would be lost just two hours ago. Losing the spires and the stain-glassed windows is a huge blow, though. Very sad, but thankfully the structure as a whole has survived.

I wonder if wouldn't it be better, due to impossibility of reconstructing the interior without it reeking artificiality, to turn the renovated cathedral into some sort of museum. Just a thought.

Why would it seem artificial? So many churches have burned down over the centuries and have been rebuilt perfectly and beautifully. Turning it into a museum means accepting to close the chapter on this church and, by extension, on Paris' and France's Christian identity. Which would seem completely unacceptable to me. In that case, it would not just be a metaphor for European civilization burning (fully expecting this to be deleted again) - it would literally be that.

You're right. It's important for such symbols to endure. While writting this post I've been under the impression the interior is completely lost and forgot about long history of rebuilding ruined landmarks.

If the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John was destroyed (it already was destroyed once, in 1944), I most likely wouldn't entertain any other thought than rebuilding.

Did the communist government of Poland drag their feet over rebuilding the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John?

Interestingly the St. John's Archcathedral (forgot to mention it's an archcathedral) was reconstructed rather quickly, between 1948 and 1956.

It was the Warsaw Royal Castle that was only rebuilt in the 70s.


By the way, speaking of remaining structures here's the Old Town Market after liberation:



And currently:




Sorry for an ocassional polishposting. Not trying to hijack the thread.

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Did the communist government of Poland drag their feet over rebuilding the Warsaw Cathedral of St. John?

Communist governments have often done a better job at rebuilding cities in their old state following WW2 than Western governments. Think about the implications of that.

Well, after the war most of Soviet-backed governments in Eastern Europe were trying very hard to pretend they're not "really that communist" (hell, Bierut's membership in the PPR was kept "secret" for some time). There still was the illusion of honest elections to follow and maintaining full sovereignty, which was especially evident in Poland. Dragging one's feet over rebuilding Warsaw would be too risky, even though many commies really preferred to just start over in Łódź, as much easier to control among other things. The idea of rebuilding the capital was just too important to the millions.

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So what do you all think of Macron's architectural competition to design a new roof and spire for Notre Dame?

I think it's a Massive HP move.

Tbh different materials will most likely have to be used and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a new design being used (although rebuilding them to the closest design possible to the old ones would be my preference), but the roof and spire need to be rebuilt in Gothic style at the very least. On the other hand, I think Macron wants a "modern" design built in glass or something like that. If that's the case, I'd rather just not have the roof or spire rebuilt.

Agreed. It's been pretty clear everybody wants the Notre Dame to be rebuilt as closely to what it was before, because it's freaking Notre Dame, because of continuity and preservance, because of its iconic look, etc. Sure, it can't be done in exactly the same way as you've pointed out, but if this is the intention, you might just as well erect a whole new structure and call it "Notre Dame".

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Cause of fire officially confirmed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c8DEK3I3pU

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https://www.nouvelobs.com/societe/20190503.OBS12448/les-francais-seront-consultes-sur-la-reconstruction-de-notre-dame-de-paris.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1rvzUc9-0xyukeFnuwIlLC25BON3nrJIozK1UcjNozyeO101Xs2xv_XLY#Echobox=1556899022

"The French (people) will be consulted on the reconstruction of Notre Dame"

"Consultation" is a wonderfully vague term.

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That new spire is probably intended to represent Macron's manhood. He'll probably like it to be furnished with gold too.

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What I'm most worried about is if they super rush the rebuild so Macron can be in charge of opening it in his second term, which would doubtless cause an embarrassingly shoddy bit of workmanship.

The last thing we need is to see another fire because someone screws up.

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Marcon probably wants to outdone Napoleon III in leaving his "imprint" on Paris. However Napoleon/Hausmann renovation of Paris actually made sense.

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For those of us whose French is limited, is Macron still trying to rebuild the cathedral as the Temple of the Supreme Being (with the Supreme Being presumably being Macron himself)?

Does he know what happened to the last guy in France who tried to promote the cult of the Supreme Being?