David Irving arrested

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In Austria apparently. No details.

[afleitch]

In Austria apparently. No details.

I wonder what finally nailed him.

[freek]

I wonder what finally nailed him.

In Austria was an arrest order issued against him, dating from 1989. In speeches in Vienna and Leoben in 1989, he apparently denied the existence of gas chambers in concentration camps. And that is forbidden in Austria. Maximum sentence: 20 years in prison.

http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2246328. In German.

[freek]

Ah, I found a source in English.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Austria_Irving_Arrested.html

[MarkDel]

Wow. Let's denounce a Fascist by...behaving like Fascists and arresting him for what he THINKS...

And you guys on the other side of the Pond like to lecture us Americans about Free Speech.....hmmmm

[minionofmidas]

Wow. Let's denounce a Fascist by...behaving like Fascists and arresting him for what he THINKS...

And you guys on the other side of the Pond like to lecture us Americans about Free Speech.....hmmmm

I've never lectured an American on Free Speech to my knowledge ... your constitution's free speech clause is one of the most sweeping on the earth, and I approve of it.
Now ... there's lots of other things that America frigging well deserves being lectured about...

[MarkDel]

OK Trondheim, I'm probably gonna regret engaging in discourse with you, but what do we need lecturing about?

[minionofmidas]

OK Trondheim, I'm probably gonna regret engaging in discourse with you, but what do we need lecturing about?

Well, the whole crime and punishment issue obviously sticks out. Quite repelling thought to have a close ally with that kind of barbarism in place... you see there must be lots of good things about you too if we swallow that.
Race relations, but right now several countries in Europe seem to be headed down your road. (maybe amend the old "Race is the American Class" to "Muslim is the European Black"?)
Quality of journalism, especially around the Iraq War ... and that's not saying ours is good...
Plus, helluva lot of things where the first world, including you and us, deserves lecturing but I'll spare you that because nobody's going to listen anyways...
Sheet, I'll probably regret this post too...

[MarkDel]

Trondheim,

No, I'm pleasantly surprised by your answer. One of the least anti-American commentaries you've made.

[The Duke]

Well, the whole crime and punishment issue obviously sticks out. Quite repelling thought to have a close ally with that kind of barbarism in place... you see there must be lots of good things about you too if we swallow that.

Punishment for crime is barbaric

[JohnFKennedy]

Wow. Let's denounce a Fascist by...behaving like Fascists and arresting him for what he THINKS...

And you guys on the other side of the Pond like to lecture us Americans about Free Speech.....hmmmm

Well looky here what the cat dragged in! Long time no see Mark, what's up? When'd you arrive back here and what is with that there Georgia avatar?

[Alcon]

Well, the whole crime and punishment issue obviously sticks out. Quite repelling thought to have a close ally with that kind of barbarism in place... you see there must be lots of good things about you too if we swallow that.

Punishment for crime is barbaric

The death penalty, I assume, which is perhaps one of those uniquely American things in the civilised world.

Not to say it is wrong, but culturally, I get the impression that the rest of the world (even in moderate countries) is strongly against it.

[Ebowed]

Austria holds 'Holocaust denier' David Irving
Irving maintains his conclusions come from serious research

British revisionist historian David Irving is being held in Austria under laws against denying the Holocaust.

An interior ministry spokesman said police in the province of Styria acted on a warrant issued in 1989 to arrest him last Friday.

Mr Irving was on his way to give a lecture in the capital, Vienna.

In his books, Mr Irving has argued that the scale of the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis in World War II has been exaggerated.

He also claimed that Nazi leader Adolf Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust.

He told a libel hearing in London in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp.

He lost the case and the judge branded him "an active Holocaust denier".

'Anti-Semitic'

A spokesman for the Austrian interior ministry, Rudolf Gollia, told the BBC that Mr Irving was first taken to the town of Graz, but was now in custody in Vienna.

Anti-Nazi groups in the UK congratulated the Austrian government.

The chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, Lord Greville Janner, said he hoped the move would "lead to a successful prosecution".

The head of the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust said denial was not a matter of opinion.

"Austrian law demands incisive action to protect its citizens from a repeat of the past," he added.

Mr Irving was previously arrested in Austria in 1984.

This time, the historian was stopped near the town of Hartberg while reportedly on his way to address a students' club in Vienna.

Mr Irving came into the spotlight in 2000 when he sued US academic Deborah Lipstadt for describing him as a "Holocaust denier" in her 1994 work Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory.

Giving his verdict, the British judge said Mr Irving was "an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4446646.stm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Seeing as there seems to have been an active warrant for his arrest in Austria, does turning up there qualify him for some kind of stupidity award?

[Joe Republic]

Wow. Let's denounce a Fascist by...behaving like Fascists and arresting him for what he THINKS...

And you guys on the other side of the Pond like to lecture us Americans about Free Speech.....hmmmm

The only countries that have anti-Holocaust-denial laws are those that were under Nazi control during WWII, and therefore were directly affected by the catastrophe.  So I think they have a pretty good excuse for arresting somebody trying to deliberately distort past events based on fabricated evidence, and also trying to claim legitimacy.

Suppressing the spread of antisemitic rhetoric in places such as Austria, given its past, is probably a good thing, wouldn't you say?

[Ebowed]

The only countries that have anti-Holocaust-denial laws are those that were under Nazi control during WWII, and therefore were directly affected by the catastrophe.  So I think they have a pretty good excuse for arresting somebody trying to deliberately distort past events based on fabricated evidence, and also trying to claim legitimacy.

Suppressing the spread of antisemitic rhetoric in places such as Austria, given its past, is probably a good thing, wouldn't you say?

Suppressing the spread of antisemetic rhetoric, or rhetoric condemning any other religions, is at its very core a fascist ideal.  I do not believe that the events of the past should necessarily be taken into account when creating laws, simply because I support laws based on principle instead.

What you need to understand is that antisemitism was actively encouraged by these governments during the WWII periods.  Now they are trying to suppress these same ideas.  While the effects of both actions are decidedly different, they are both actions of totalitarianism:  first, that hatred of a religion should be actively encouraged and sanctioned by a government; and second, hatred of a religion should be completely banned.  If the government did not interfere in these issues, there would be no such controversy.

[minionofmidas]

Seeing as there seems to have been an active warrant for his arrest in Austria, does turning up there qualify him for some kind of stupidity award?

Only if he didn't expect to be arrested, which I wouldn't bet on actually.

[The Duke]

Wow. Let's denounce a Fascist by...behaving like Fascists and arresting him for what he THINKS...

And you guys on the other side of the Pond like to lecture us Americans about Free Speech.....hmmmm

The only countries that have anti-Holocaust-denial laws are those that were under Nazi control during WWII, and therefore were directly affected by the catastrophe.  So I think they have a pretty good excuse for arresting somebody trying to deliberately distort past events based on fabricated evidence, and also trying to claim legitimacy.

Suppressing the spread of antisemitic rhetoric in places such as Austria, given its past, is probably a good thing, wouldn't you say?

There are a lot of facist laws that people can justify by warning of various future negative consequences.  Implying that's MarkDel's position results in a replay of the holocaust is a pretty cheap debate tactic.  This Austrian law is thought control, plain and simple.

American history has some similarities to te holocaust.  For example, would you back a law that jails anyone who denies our mistreatment of Native Americans?

[Michael Z]

The laws in Germany and Austria exist because there's still a lot of pain over what happened in the Holocaust. Americans and German-speaking nations simply tend to have a different attitude over this due to their differing cultural experiences, and I really don't think it would be wise to turn this into a debate where basically each side wants the other to be just like them.

[The Duke]

The laws in Germany and Austria exist because there's still a lot of pain over what happened in the Holocaust. Americans and German-speaking nations simply tend to have a different attitude over this due to their differing cultural experiences, and I really don't think it would be wise to turn this into a debate where basically each side wants the other to be just like them.

Yes, God forbid we demand that the Europeans allow dissenting views.  You're experiences justify your injustice?  What are you over there, a bunch of 14 year old girls crying yourself to sleep at night because you had a bad dream about Nazis?  Please.

[Emsworth]

Making Holocaust denial a crime is inexcusable. The mere fact that some people might be "pained" or "offended" by a denial of the Holocaust does not justify a deprivation of one's right to express one's opinions. Nor, in my opinion, should the Nazi Party be banned.

[The Duke]

"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

-Thomas Jefferson

[Filuwaúrdjan]

and is just as fascist as the Naziism that these people are trying to stop from repeating.

I don't agree with bans on holocaust denial (people live Irving are more than capable of discrediting their rather sick cause on their own; you all remember that libel trial a few years ago? Haha! ) but that's going more than ever-so-slightly over the top.

[Joe Republic]

You both have valid points, John and Ebowed.  I was going to make a point about denials of the Soviet gulag Holocaust, but then quickly realized that this is still pretty much the state policy in Russia.

[Michael Z]

The laws in Germany and Austria exist because there's still a lot of pain over what happened in the Holocaust. Americans and German-speaking nations simply tend to have a different attitude over this due to their differing cultural experiences, and I really don't think it would be wise to turn this into a debate where basically each side wants the other to be just like them.

Yes, God forbid we demand that the Europeans allow dissenting views. You're experiences justify your injustice?  What are you over there, a bunch of 14 year old girls crying yourself to sleep at night because you had a bad dream about Nazis?  Please.

Twisting words around? Check. Playground insults? Check. Describing the collective cultural experience of the holocaust as a "bad dream"? Check.

You truly are a detestable human being.

On a sidenote, I never said I agreed with the ban on holocaust denial, I simply stated why I understand it exists in specific countries. It's called objectivity. Look it up, you parochial halfwit.