Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 25, 2019, 08:02:47 am
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

  Atlas Forum
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections (Moderators: Gustaf, Lumine)
  Ramblings on the House
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Ramblings on the House  (Read 599 times)
Deeply Disturbing
jk2020
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8,455


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: May 15, 2019, 11:49:43 am »

Yesterday, I made a post regarding the relationship between the House and regional legislatures. The premise, essentially, was simple: Lincoln is supposedly successfully able to carry a 9 member regional legislature, but in turn only has one member of the House. By contrast, Fremont, despite being the smallest region, is the home region of an absolute majority of Representatives (Koopa, TPH, fhtagn, Jimmy, DFW) - and Fremont, as a result, is in a complete candidate shortage for its extremely large assembly.

But this also gets to a larger point: During the debate on that Lincoln amendment, Ninja made a comment that reducing regional legislatures would reduce opportunity for newer players, as regional legislatures serve as the primary entrance point for new players. But of course, there is another institution of government that's also supposed to serve as such an entrance point: the House. The House - as a combination of old and new blood - was intended to be a training ground for newer players on par with the regions. But this has quite clearly not been the case. Since the start of 2018 (that's eight elections), the number of truly "new blood" players elected to the House can be counted on one hand: weatherboy, me, OSR, Maineiac, Alancia. And in the cases of weatherboy and Alancia, both had actually been in the CoD for around a month before joining the House.

The balance of old and new blood in the House has very clearly been tilted towards "new blood". And as a result, we've returned to the pre-reset mentality that regional legislatures are the only training ground, from which one then advances to either an executive position or Congress. The causes for this change are actually quite apparent when you look at it: experienced players being regionally locked from the Senate. Of the five representatives from Fremont, three are right-wingers - two of whom have made numerous unsuccessful runs at region-wide office in the past. In the South - otherwise a right wing vote sink - two of its three representatives are established left-wingers. For players who are in this situation regarding their region, the House suddenly becomes the highest aspiration possible short of the Presidency or VP. And these players start to dominate the chamber's composition - something that's more true now than it ever has been in the past.

The most often suggested courses regarding legislative size have been reducing the size of the House while continuing with or even expanding the sizes of the large regional legislatures. I posit that the better course of action would actually be precisely the opposite - we should be looking at increasing the size of the House while reigning back in the 9- and 8-member regional legislative behemoths. This way, the House can accommodate some of these older players regionally locked out of the Senate while still leaving enough room for newer players to blossom.

Of course, if we actually wish to change the fact that the House is now a final aspiration for many players, then more dramatic changes are probably needed. One particularly radical idea would be something along the lines of the following: In addition to the six regional seats in the Senate, add two at-large seats to the chamber; in order to balance the regional/at-large disparity, convert three of the House seats to regional ones. This way, the Senate can act as the final legislative aspiration of pretty much any player. Instead of many players just being stuck in the House, they can make Senate runs that actually have a chance at winning instead of just being sacrificial lambs for the position. In addition, having more "venues" for elections (regional House, at-large House, regional Senate, at-large Senate) means that there will have to be more serious campaigns that actually fall short - in other words, more competitiveness, thus actually increasing the value of an office by making one have to compete for them.

I'm not necessarily saying something such as the above is the ideal solution, merely something to put out there. But if we don't change things, and we continue with what was essentially the pre-reset status quo with the federal legislature as the final (non-presidential) aspiration for players while the regional governments act as feeders, then I don't really see a point in retaining bicameralism - the House's value as an incubative chamber has been completely lost.
Logged
El Bayamés
razze
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,054
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -6.52, S: -4.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 12:08:15 pm »

I love radicalism (as in reforming government institutions)! I'm not sure about the House regional seats idea, but increasing the size of the House could be productive. Making the Senate more accessible would also be nice though, as a Southerner I can testify to the Senate being a glass ceiling for anyone who isn't a conservative 'round these parts
Logged
Esteemed Speaker Jimmy7812
Jimmy7812
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,904
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.74, S: -2.91

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 12:11:46 pm »

I love radicalism (as in reforming government institutions)! I'm not sure about the House regional seats idea, but increasing the size of the House could be productive. Making the Senate more accessible would also be nice though, as a Southerner I can testify to the Senate being a glass ceiling for anyone who isn't a conservative 'round these parts

I'd support increasing the number of House seats. I'd also like the idea of regions having three senate seats, instead of the current two.
Logged
Speaker YE
YE
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,412


Political Matrix
E: -4.13, S: -1.04

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 12:26:20 pm »

Two at large Senate seats would end up as 1 Labor 1 Fed all the time. Six House seats at large would present a similar problem. Not to mention it would screw the balance of bicameralism.

Also some of your history seems incorrect. Razze and Devout Centrist went from regional legislature to House. So did Ninja. Not any different than WB and Alancia.

Honestly we could increase the size of the House but I don’t want to shortchange regional legislators too much, and during October to December when activity tends to decline and the player base contracts, there’s be a high likelihood of a non-existent regional government.
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Griff
Adam Griffin
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15,041
Greece


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 12:29:30 pm »

You beat me to it, but I largely agree with what has been said here. This forming imbalance frankly has played a huge role in my concern for the game as of late and my entrance as a presidential candidate. I'm not sure I agree with expanding the House unless we could curtail the number of regional offices above and beyond even what we did during consolidation (though prior to the final plan in 2015-16, I did support a House with 16-18 members).

The post-reset game was designed with a specific set of criteria in mind and the number of offices (along with the balance between federal and regional) was not chosen at random. The game works best in the current iteration when there are ~40 elected offices; it blows my mind that we now have more elected offices in a 3-region system than we did in 2015 with a 5-region system on the verge of collapse.

One thing is clear, though: the imbalance is entirely on the regions. This was why I also supported a constitutional cap during the ConCon on the number of regional legislative offices that could exist (with a Census-like system that reapportioned every two months and that discouraged strategic registration) - because I knew one day, people would forget and people would repeat the same mistakes in one format or another. Ultimately, this will cause big problems if left unchecked. We can't have 7, 9 or even 11-member parliamentary systems in every region and expect things to be sustainable.
Logged
Deeply Disturbing
jk2020
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8,455


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 12:29:54 pm »

Two at large Senate seats would end up as 1 Labor 1 Fed all the time. Six House seats at large would present a similar problem. Not to mention it would screw the balance of bicameralism.

Also some of your history seems incorrect. Razze and Devout Centrist went from regional legislature to House. So did Ninja. Not any different than WB and Alancia.

The difference is time. Razze and DC both spent a substantial amount of time in their regional legislatures before moving to House, they really couldn't be considered inexperienced players.

Same with Ninja - he was even speaker of the legislature before becoming a Representative.

Also in the hypothetical proposal above the at large seats would be split one per class.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 41,843
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019, 12:47:54 pm »

I tried to bring back Adam's idea for a cap on regional legislatures in 2017 and it was shot to pieces by several people.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 41,843
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2019, 12:51:13 pm »

Also while I can see why the House is considered a lower post to some, it is suppose to be an equal branch to the Senate, not beneath it.
Logged
Speaker YE
YE
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6,412


Political Matrix
E: -4.13, S: -1.04

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2019, 01:48:55 pm »

I tried to bring back Adam's idea for a cap on regional legislatures in 2017 and it was shot to pieces by several people.

Now would be a good time to bring such idea back, given that the large size of legislatures appears to be causing problems of sorts.
Logged
Senator LouisvilleThunder
LouisvilleThunder
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,459
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: 0.70

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2019, 01:55:20 pm »

Also while I can see why the House is considered a lower post to some, it is suppose to be an equal branch to the Senate, not beneath it.

I think this is due to the culture of the House as a 9 member body results it in being a place where the two sides (left and right) are pressured too much to obey orders from whoever is the dominant member of their party or ideological hemisphere. That sort of idea isn't really fun, and by the way people act in this game towards disagreement, it's easy to end up getting disengaged as a House member.
Logged
tack50
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,019
Spain


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 02:10:37 pm »

I will say that for a (relatively) new player it's also not impossible to make a jump directly to the Senate, nor is it impossible for someone to win an election in an "ideologically hostile" region (though it is getting increasingly hard I believe).

A good example is probably my election against LT. At the time I was still very new, having only served to fill a vacancy in the Southern CoD for like a month. Meanwhile, LT was someone from the right trying to run in a left wing region (though Lincoln is still more of a tossup than Fremont).

End result: We both tie twice; with Lincoln electing both a right winger and a new player to the Senate.
Logged
Senator LouisvilleThunder
LouisvilleThunder
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,459
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: 0.70

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 02:17:25 pm »

I will say that for a (relatively) new player it's also not impossible to make a jump directly to the Senate, nor is it impossible for someone to win an election in an "ideologically hostile" region (though it is getting increasingly hard I believe).

A good example is probably my election against LT. At the time I was still very new, having only served to fill a vacancy in the Southern CoD for like a month. Meanwhile, LT was someone from the right trying to run in a left wing region (though Lincoln is still more of a tossup than Fremont).

End result: We both tie twice; with Lincoln electing both a right winger and a new player to the Senate.
I know right! Labor used to love the Senate as they have the current structural advantage based on regional registration, and that allowed them to take those two Lincoln seats for granted by electing inactive hacks. Now that their birthright slipped from the palms of their hands they want to change the Senate. Sad!!!
Logged
tack50
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,019
Spain


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 02:38:49 pm »

I will say that for a (relatively) new player it's also not impossible to make a jump directly to the Senate, nor is it impossible for someone to win an election in an "ideologically hostile" region (though it is getting increasingly hard I believe).

A good example is probably my election against LT. At the time I was still very new, having only served to fill a vacancy in the Southern CoD for like a month. Meanwhile, LT was someone from the right trying to run in a left wing region (though Lincoln is still more of a tossup than Fremont).

End result: We both tie twice; with Lincoln electing both a right winger and a new player to the Senate.
I know right! Labor used to love the Senate as they have the current structural advantage based on regional registration, and that allowed them to take those two Lincoln seats for granted by electing inactive hacks. Now that their birthright slipped from the palms of their hands they want to change the Senate. Sad!!!

Don't worry, Labor will fix that mistake in June Wink
Logged
Senator LouisvilleThunder
LouisvilleThunder
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,459
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: 0.70

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 03:04:33 pm »
« Edited: May 15, 2019, 03:10:27 pm by Senator LouisvilleThunder »

I will say that for a (relatively) new player it's also not impossible to make a jump directly to the Senate, nor is it impossible for someone to win an election in an "ideologically hostile" region (though it is getting increasingly hard I believe).

A good example is probably my election against LT. At the time I was still very new, having only served to fill a vacancy in the Southern CoD for like a month. Meanwhile, LT was someone from the right trying to run in a left wing region (though Lincoln is still more of a tossup than Fremont).

End result: We both tie twice; with Lincoln electing both a right winger and a new player to the Senate.
I know right! Labor used to love the Senate as they have the current structural advantage based on regional registration, and that allowed them to take those two Lincoln seats for granted by electing inactive hacks. Now that their birthright slipped from the palms of their hands they want to change the Senate. Sad!!!

Don't worry, Labor will fix that mistake in June Wink
You mean not supporting me in February? Wink

If not:
Img
Logged
Deeply Disturbing
jk2020
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8,455


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2019, 05:56:43 pm »

Also while I can see why the House is considered a lower post to some, it is suppose to be an equal branch to the Senate, not beneath it.


Lower in terms of importance, no.

Lower in terms of average seniority, yes.
Logged
Harry S Truman, MFP
Harry S Truman
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9,201


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2019, 07:03:50 pm »

Also while I can see why the House is considered a lower post to some, it is suppose to be an equal branch to the Senate, not beneath it.
I think the point is more that the lower chamber is the people's House, and its members are supposed to be drawn from the ranks of the commons—not the established elites.
Logged
Ishan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,383
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2019, 08:37:16 pm »

I agree as I've never ever got a message about a house election.
Logged
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
North Carolina Yankee
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 41,843
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2019, 10:41:14 pm »

Also while I can see why the House is considered a lower post to some, it is suppose to be an equal branch to the Senate, not beneath it.
I think the point is more that the lower chamber is the people's House, and its members are supposed to be drawn from the ranks of the commons—not the established elites.

In some ways the stepping stone process mentioned in the OP has impacted the Senate as well, at least in the regions where favorable winds prevail and thus we have had Senates in the last year or so that were nearly completely composed of relatively new people with maybe one or two exceptions in a given chamber where this the case overall. 

Logged
Sen. Vern
vern1988
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,433
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: -2.43

P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2019, 10:46:36 pm »

Let's just make a new branch of government and 5 people are elected to it. The new branch will be called the Iron Branch and the speaker of the branch sits on the Iron Throne. 
Logged
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10,693
Chile
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2019, 11:21:16 pm »
« Edited: May 15, 2019, 11:26:15 pm by Lumine »

Let's just make a new branch of government and 5 people are elected to it. The new branch will be called the Iron Branch and the speaker of the branch sits on the Iron Throne.  

Taking place in the fictional Three Kingdoms of Nymanos, "A Song of Federalists and Laborites" is a series of epic fantasy tales set in a fictional world where elections take place every four months, and often end unpredictably. Nearly three years before the events of the main story the Three Kingdoms were reunited in the distant and semi-legendary Long Reset, establishing the supremacy of the mighty Fourth Constitution and heralding an era of political upheaval, Discord intrigue and electoral zombie wars.

At the beginning of "A Game of Atlas", two peaceful and prosperous months have passed since the rebellion led by Lord Tmthforu of House Federalist, that after the successful capture of Nym's Landing managed to depose and exile the descendants of the last Laborite King, Weatherboy I "the Missing King" and thus proclaimed Tmth king of the Three Kingdoms. The series will chronicle the power struggle for the Iron House among the Great Houses of Nymanos and the rising ambition of the exiled descendants of House Labor, plotting their return from the distant lands of Fremontos...

(Couldn't resist. I might as well attempt to chronicle tales from Atlasia in ASOIAF style one day)
Logged
Senator LouisvilleThunder
LouisvilleThunder
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2,459
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: 0.70

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2019, 11:24:27 pm »

Let's just make a new branch of government and 5 people are elected to it. The new branch will be called the Iron Branch and the speaker of the branch sits on the Iron Throne.  

Taking place in the fictional Three Kingdoms of Nymanos, "A Song of Federalists and Laborites" is a series of epic fantasy tales set in a fictional world where elections take place every four months, and often end unpredictably. Nearly three years before the events of the main story the Three Kingdoms were reunited in the distant and semi-legendary Long Reset, establishing the supremacy of the mighty Fourth Constitution and heralding an era of political upheaval, Discord intrigue and electoral zombie wars.

At the beginning of "A Game of Atlas", two peaceful and prosperous months have passed since the rebellion led by Lord Tmthforu of House Federalist, that after the successful capture of Nym's Landing managed to depose and exile the descendants of the last Laborite King, Weatherboy I "the Missing King" and thus proclaimed Tmth king of the Three Kingdoms. The principal story will chronicle the power struggle for the Iron House among the Great Houses of Nymanos and the rising ambition of the exiled descendants of House Labor, plotting their return from the distant lands of Fremontos...

(Couldn't resist. I might as well attempt to chronicle tales from Atlasia in ASOIAF style one day)
Can you write a chronicle about the events between Nov 2018 and today? That would be a great read.
Logged
Sen. Vern
vern1988
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,433
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.55, S: -2.43

P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2019, 11:34:05 pm »

Let's just make a new branch of government and 5 people are elected to it. The new branch will be called the Iron Branch and the speaker of the branch sits on the Iron Throne.  

Taking place in the fictional Three Kingdoms of Nymanos, "A Song of Federalists and Laborites" is a series of epic fantasy tales set in a fictional world where elections take place every four months, and often end unpredictably. Nearly three years before the events of the main story the Three Kingdoms were reunited in the distant and semi-legendary Long Reset, establishing the supremacy of the mighty Fourth Constitution and heralding an era of political upheaval, Discord intrigue and electoral zombie wars.

At the beginning of "A Game of Atlas", two peaceful and prosperous months have passed since the rebellion led by Lord Tmthforu of House Federalist, that after the successful capture of Nym's Landing managed to depose and exile the descendants of the last Laborite King, Weatherboy I "the Missing King" and thus proclaimed Tmth king of the Three Kingdoms. The series will chronicle the power struggle for the Iron House among the Great Houses of Nymanos and the rising ambition of the exiled descendants of House Labor, plotting their return from the distant lands of Fremontos...

(Couldn't resist. I might as well attempt to chronicle tales from Atlasia in ASOIAF style one day)

This is the best thing I have read all day on this forum!
Logged
Fmr. Pres. Griff
Adam Griffin
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15,041
Greece


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 01:14:41 am »

I tried to bring back Adam's idea for a cap on regional legislatures in 2017 and it was shot to pieces by several people.

If elected President, I intend to make it my mission to put together some coalition at the federal level to revisit this and engineer a solution in some way, shape or form. Things are getting out of control.
Logged
Lumine
LumineVonReuental
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10,693
Chile
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 11:27:18 am »

Can you write a chronicle about the events between Nov 2018 and today? That would be a great read.

I'd rather like to at some point, but it does seem too soon to try and make sense of that whole period. I do want to write something ASOIAF themed, but I need to settle on an appropiate subject.
Logged
Councilor Suburban New Jersey Conservative
S019
Atlas Politician
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,257


Political Matrix
E: 3.48, S: 6.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 01:53:57 pm »

Here’s how I view political mobility


New User——>State Legislature

State Legislature——>House of Representatives

State Legislature——->Governorship

House of Reps——> Governorship
House of Reps——>Senate

Governorship——>House of Reps
Governorship——->Senate

Senate——->Position in Executive or Judicial Branch

Reducing state legislatures eliminates new politicians, also new users need practice rather than being forced to run for federal government, with no experience
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC