LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence (Referred to referendum)
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Author Topic: LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence (Referred to referendum)  (Read 5779 times)
Zaybay
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« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2019, 08:48:01 PM »

Abstain
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Dipper Josh
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« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2019, 08:48:13 PM »

Aye
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Sirius_
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« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2019, 04:07:12 PM »

Aye
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fhtagn
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« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2019, 07:36:18 PM »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.
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Peanut
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« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2019, 07:49:42 PM »

Despite the Congresswoman's concerns, I do believe this was a good way to bring some sense into this (otherwise inane) bill. Glad to see these steps.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2019, 07:58:03 PM »

The vote on Amendment L 2:46 by tack50 to LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence is now closed

Aye: 4 (Dipper Josh, Pyro, Griffin, tack50)
Abstain: 3 (Zaybay, SNJC, lfromnj)
Nay: 1 (thr33)
Voted too late: 1 (Ninja)

So the amendment passes.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2019, 07:59:45 PM »
« Edited: June 03, 2019, 08:03:15 PM by tack50 »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.

Well, many aims that we were trying to get with the fixed version of this bill were actually better handled by the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 and in a more elegant way, so best to bring that bill back.

Why was it unconstitutional though? To my knowledge there has never been a court case on it right?
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fhtagn
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« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2019, 08:11:30 PM »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.

Well, many aims that we were trying to get with the fixed version of this bill were actually better handled by the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 and in a more elegant way, so best to bring that bill back.

Why was it unconstitutional though? To my knowledge there has never been a court case on it right?

Poll taxes were used to disenfranchise blacks and poor whites because payment was considered a prerequisite for voting.

The licensing outlined in the Lincoln Gun Control Act works the exact same way, except applied to gun rights (which is a constitutional right in case some of you forgot), rather than voting rights. It's a very clear example of infringement.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2019, 08:14:36 PM »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.

Well, many aims that we were trying to get with the fixed version of this bill were actually better handled by the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 and in a more elegant way, so best to bring that bill back.

Why was it unconstitutional though? To my knowledge there has never been a court case on it right?

Poll taxes were used to disenfranchise blacks and poor whites because payment was considered a prerequisite for voting.

The licensing outlined in the Lincoln Gun Control Act works the exact same way, except applied to gun rights (which is a constitutional right in case some of you forgot), rather than voting rights. It's a very clear example of infringement.

Eh, I'd disagree with that assessment. Buying a gun will be several times more expensive than any licensing the government could reasonably impose.

And worst case scenario, the bill could just be amended so that said licenses are free (so you can get a license for free and poor people can have a gun license too I guess, even if they can't buy a gun)
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AustralianSwingVoter
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« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2019, 08:28:01 PM »

There's also the question over whether banning those convicted of violent crime from owning firearms is an infringement of the right to bear arms, which on balance it probably is.
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fhtagn
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« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2019, 08:38:42 PM »
« Edited: June 03, 2019, 08:44:49 PM by Representative fhtagn »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.

Well, many aims that we were trying to get with the fixed version of this bill were actually better handled by the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 and in a more elegant way, so best to bring that bill back.

Why was it unconstitutional though? To my knowledge there has never been a court case on it right?

Poll taxes were used to disenfranchise blacks and poor whites because payment was considered a prerequisite for voting.

The licensing outlined in the Lincoln Gun Control Act works the exact same way, except applied to gun rights (which is a constitutional right in case some of you forgot), rather than voting rights. It's a very clear example of infringement.

Eh, I'd disagree with that assessment. Buying a gun will be several times more expensive than any licensing the government could reasonably impose.

And worst case scenario, the bill could just be amended so that said licenses are free (so you can get a license for free and poor people can have a gun license too I guess, even if they can't buy a gun)

The licenses aren't just for purchase, it's for carrying a firearm as well. So people who already own a gun are affected. It's also not just licenses that are the problem. This also required people to participate in training classes as a government approved facility. So this also harms people who do not have transportation to these facilities, people who live too far away from the nearest facility, or people who cannot afford the classes.

Sure, you can attempt to at least make the licensing portion free to your citizens, but the GM department already did an analysis on how much that would cost at the time that bill was debated. Are you really sure you want to destroy the regions budget just so the region can participate in constitutional overreach?

In fact, Ninja even agreed at the time that the cost estimate given at the time was too much:

I'm just wondering if this was going to be addressed at any point:

So this programme will cost around $8.188 billion. Taking into account factors like non compliance, the license fee would need to be at-least $243.39 on average per gun to break even.

Regressive poor tax to exercise a right.
I'd like for everyone to consider the possibility of the cost being split between the government and applicant. I think that making this free would incur too much debt but also agree that the licensing cost would be a bit too high. How do you guys feel about this proposal?
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2019, 08:49:22 PM »

Not sure whose bright idea it was to bring back the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but that bill was the equivalent of a poll tax.

I would hope most of y'all here have the common sense to realize why that's unconstitutional.

Well, many aims that we were trying to get with the fixed version of this bill were actually better handled by the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 and in a more elegant way, so best to bring that bill back.

Why was it unconstitutional though? To my knowledge there has never been a court case on it right?

Poll taxes were used to disenfranchise blacks and poor whites because payment was considered a prerequisite for voting.

The licensing outlined in the Lincoln Gun Control Act works the exact same way, except applied to gun rights (which is a constitutional right in case some of you forgot), rather than voting rights. It's a very clear example of infringement.

Eh, I'd disagree with that assessment. Buying a gun will be several times more expensive than any licensing the government could reasonably impose.

And worst case scenario, the bill could just be amended so that said licenses are free (so you can get a license for free and poor people can have a gun license too I guess, even if they can't buy a gun)

The licenses aren't just for purchase, it's for carrying a firearm as well. So people who already own a gun are affected. It's also not just licenses that are the problem. This also required people to participate in training classes as a government approved facility. So this also harms people who do not have transportation to these facilities, people who live too far away from the nearest facility, or people who cannot afford the classes.

Sure, you can attempt to at least make the licensing portion free to your citizens, but the GM department already did an analysis on how much that would cost at the time that bill was debated. Are you really sure you want to destroy the regions budget just so the region can participate in constitutional overreach?

In fact, Ninja even agreed at the time that the cost estimate given at the time was too much:

I'm just wondering if this was going to be addressed at any point:

So this programme will cost around $8.188 billion. Taking into account factors like non compliance, the license fee would need to be at-least $243.39 on average per gun to break even.

Regressive poor tax to exercise a right.
I'd like for everyone to consider the possibility of the cost being split between the government and applicant. I think that making this free would incur too much debt but also agree that the licensing cost would be a bit too high. How do you guys feel about this proposal?

Well, that's certainly a compelling argument I'll admit.

Reading the Gun Control bill though, I fail to see any place where the government would need to pay?

I imagine the cost part assumes the government creating new facilities? No idea tbh.

In any case, if the cost is indeed 8 billion dollars (or 4bn as finally passed) this is certainly an expensive program we'll have to abandon I am afraid
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Peanut
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« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2019, 08:50:22 PM »

Interesting argument from an economic standpoint. Regarding the constitutionality of the provisions, I do think a good bill can be reached--setting some reasonable gun control measures doesn't mean unconstititionality directly.
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AustralianSwingVoter
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« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2019, 08:52:41 PM »

Interesting argument from an economic standpoint. Regarding the constitutionality of the provisions, I do think a good bill can be reached--setting some reasonable gun control measures doesn't mean unconstititionality directly.

The constitutionally problematic section is 3, which bans gun ownership for those convicted of violent crime.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2019, 08:58:35 PM »

Interesting argument from an economic standpoint. Regarding the constitutionality of the provisions, I do think a good bill can be reached--setting some reasonable gun control measures doesn't mean unconstititionality directly.

The constitutionally problematic section is 3, which bans gun ownership for those convicted of violent crime.

Specifically misdemeanor common assault
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S019
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« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2019, 06:27:17 AM »

Does this have the votes to pass, now


Also it's not unconstitutional, it's just a strict gun control bill
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2019, 07:10:30 AM »

Does this have the votes to pass, now


Also it's not unconstitutional, it's just a strict gun control bill

Almost certainly not, and most likely it's doomed to fail 2-7.
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« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2019, 07:15:37 AM »
« Edited: June 09, 2019, 11:54:36 AM by tack50 »

Ok, the main issue for me right now is not the possible unconstitutionality argument, but rather the high cost at a time of economic uncertainty. There is a compromise to be found here somewhere, I just don't know where it is.

So here is my amendment, which will reinstate the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018, but with modifications to make the reinstatment almost entirely free of charge for taxpayers.

Amendment L 2:53 by tack50 to LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

Quote
A bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

SECTION I: New regulations
1. The sale of any automatic firearms  is hereby prohibited in the Region of Lincoln.

1. The practice of concealed carry is hereby banned in all states and territories under the jurisdiction of Lincoln

2. Background checks shall be conducted by the reinstated Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL), as established by federal regulations on gun related background checks.

3. All residents of Lincoln convicted of a violent crime shall be banned from purchasing a gun or firearm for 15 years after the end of their sentence. Violent crimes include, but are not limited to: rape, murder, homicide, robbery, agression, aggravated assault, car theft, domestic violence, kidnapping, terrorism, terrorist threats, burglary and belonging to a drug cartel, gang or another violent illegal organization.

4. The Lincoln Gun Control Repeal Act of 2018 is hereby repealed



SECTION II: Reinstating the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

1. The Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 is hereby reinstated with all its provisions intact, as originally passed by the old Lincoln Assembly with the following amendments

Quote
Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

Section 1: Gun Licensing

i. A license shall be required to purchase and carry a firearm in the region of Lincoln.
ii. This license shall be required to be renewed every two five years.
iii. There shall be three categories of gun licenses: Class A for handguns, Class B for rifles and shotguns, and Class C for assault rifles or other semi-automatic weapons.
iv. To obtain a Class A license, a citizen must not have committed a violent crime, must have proof of passing a handgun training and safety exam class at a government approved facility, and must be at least 18 years of age.
v. To obtain a Class B license, a citizen must meet Class A requirements as well as have not committed a felony, except for those only regarding finance, have proof of passing a shotgun/rifle training and safety exam class at a government approved facility, and pass a mental health test issued by a psychologist.
vi. To obtain a Class C license, a citizen must meet Class B requirements as well as having proof of a reasonable cause for having a Class C license, having proof of passing an assault weapon training and safety exam at a government approved facility, and be at least 21 years of age.
vii. The testing materials for the exams in the sections above shall be distributed for free by the government of Lincoln through the internet
viii. The tests for the exams in the sections above shall be conducted at any facility that performs tests for driver's licenses. The government of Lincoln shall not charge any fees for performing this exam

vii. 50% of the cost of licenses is to be covered by the applicant, the remaining 50% is to be covered by the government of Lincoln.

Section 2: Bans
i. Bump stocks and suppressors shall also be considered prohibited to operate, purchase, sell, or possess by private citizens. Magazines with more then 10 rounds of ammunition are also prohibited.
ii. Any individual that possess, uses, sells or purchases any of the above devices may face a fine not exceeding $100,000 and jail sentence not exceeding 3 years for all convictions made at a single point in time.
iii. Any individual who made a specific threat against a specific a specific citizen, business or institution in Lincoln within the last 60 days from the time they attempt to squire a firearm in Lincoln.

Section 3: Firearm Gifting and Sale Liability
i. Any individual residing in Lincoln that gifts or sells a firearm to any individual that uses it to commit a violent crime may be held both civilly and criminally liable if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that they knew or ought to have known it was illegal for the individual to own or operate the firearm or that it would be used in a crime.

Section 4: Public School Security
i. All visitors as defined as a non-current student or faculty to a public school in Lincoln is must have any bags searched by a staff member situated at the front door before they are allowed to enter the School.

Section 5: Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing
i. The Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL) is to be established.
ii. The BFSL shall have an NPC director that is appointed by the governor. The director is to handle hiring all other personnel. The governor can dissolve and reform the BFSL if deemed necessary.
iii. The BFSL is to oversee all proceedings of obtaining a firearms license and collect fines incurred from violations of gun laws.
iv. Collected fines are to be sent to a fund which is to be used to cover the government costs of licensing.

Section 6: Implementation


i. Sections 1 and 5 shall go into effect on January 1st, 2019.
ii. Sections 2, 3, and 4 shall go into effect immediately upon passage.

SECTION III: Implementation
1. This bill shall go into effect 1 month after passage.
2. Current gun owners shall be given a 2 year transition period where they can be allowed to keep and use their guns without a license.


Sponsor feedback: Friendly
Status: 24h to object

With this amendment, the Lincoln Gun Control Act will no longer be unconstitutional as there will be a defined list of crimes that will strip you of your gun rights with due process.

The Lincoln Gun Control Act is also amended so that any resident in Lincoln can get a license for free. To get a license, a citizen could just download the testing materials from the internet and then do a test at any place where driver's tests are performed.

So this also means the Lincoln government will barely pay anything either, if at all. Publishing a book through the internet and crafting testing materials shouldn't be that hard or expensive.
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S019
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« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2019, 11:22:25 AM »

Friendly
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2019, 06:45:50 AM »

With no objections, the above amendment is added to the bill.

Also RIP I realized I have missed something, so time for yet another one Sad
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2019, 06:54:49 AM »

Amendment L 2:55 by tack50 to LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

Quote
A bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

SECTION I: New regulations
1. The sale of any automatic firearms  is hereby prohibited in the Region of Lincoln.

1. The practice of concealed carry is hereby banned in all states and territories under the jurisdiction of Lincoln

2. Background checks shall be conducted by the reinstated Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL), as established by federal regulations on gun related background checks.

3. All residents of Lincoln convicted of a violent crime shall be banned from purchasing a gun or firearm for 15 years after the end of their sentence. Violent crimes include, but are not limited to: rape, murder, homicide, robbery, agression, aggravated assault, car theft, domestic violence, kidnapping, terrorism, terrorist threats, burglary and belonging to a drug cartel, gang or another violent illegal organization.

4. The Lincoln Gun Control Repeal Act of 2018 is hereby repealed



SECTION II: Reinstating the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

1. The Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 is hereby reinstated with the following amendments

Quote
Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

Section 1: Gun Licensing

i. A license shall be required to purchase and carry a firearm in the region of Lincoln.
ii. This license shall be required to be renewed every five years.
iii. There shall be three categories of gun licenses: Class A for handguns, Class B for rifles and shotguns, and Class C for assault rifles or other semi-automatic weapons.
iv. To obtain a Class A license, a citizen must not have committed a violent crime, must have proof of passing a handgun training and safety exam, and must be at least 18 years of age.
v. To obtain a Class B license, a citizen must meet Class A requirements as well as have not committed a felony, except for those only regarding finance, have proof of passing a shotgun/rifle training and safety exam, and pass a mental health test issued by a psychologist.
vi. To obtain a Class C license, a citizen must meet Class B requirements as well as having proof of a reasonable cause for having a Class C license, having proof of passing an assault weapon training and safety exam, and be at least 21 years of age.
vii. The testing materials for the exams in the sections above shall be distributed for free by the government of Lincoln through the internet
viii. The tests for the exams in the sections above shall be conducted at any facility that performs tests for driver's licenses. The government of Lincoln shall not charge any fees for performing this exam

Section 2: Bans
i. Bump stocks and suppressors shall also be considered prohibited to operate, purchase, sell, or possess by private citizens. Magazines with more then 10 rounds of ammunition are also prohibited.
ii. Any individual that possess, uses, sells or purchases any of the above devices may face a fine not exceeding $100,000 and jail sentence not exceeding 3 years for all convictions made at a single point in time.
iii. Any individual who made a specific threat against a specific a specific citizen, business or institution in Lincoln within the last 60 days from the time they attempt to squire a firearm in Lincoln.

Section 3: Firearm Gifting and Sale Liability
i. Any individual residing in Lincoln that gifts or sells a firearm to any individual that uses it to commit a violent crime may be held both civilly and criminally liable if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that they knew or ought to have known it was illegal for the individual to own or operate the firearm or that it would be used in a crime.

Section 4: Public School Security
i. All visitors as defined as a non-current student or faculty to a public school in Lincoln is must have any bags searched by a staff member situated at the front door before they are allowed to enter the School.

Section 5: Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing
i. The Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL) is to be established.
ii. The BFSL shall have an NPC director that is appointed by the governor. The director is to handle hiring all other personnel. The governor can dissolve and reform the BFSL if deemed necessary.
iii. The BFSL is to oversee all proceedings of obtaining a firearms license and collect fines incurred from violations of gun laws.
iv. Collected fines are to be sent to a fund which is to be used to cover the government costs of licensing.


SECTION III: Implementation
1. This bill shall go into effect 1 month after passage.
2. Current gun owners shall be given a 2 year transition period where they can be allowed to keep and use their guns without a license.

Sponsor feedback: 24 hours to specify, otherwise assumed unfriendly
Status: 24h to object

This is a simple amendment to remove the "but not limited to" part of section I.3 to comply with Mr. R's concerns about unconstitutionality, which I accidentally missed.

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« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2019, 07:07:17 AM »

Unfriendly, this creates a potential loophole, violent crimes might include those, not already written
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AustralianSwingVoter
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« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2019, 08:25:14 AM »

Oh dear god not another 8-1 amendment vote because Suburban is being Suburban. Just kill this damn silly thing already, and I'm saying that as one of the most pro-gun control people in this game.
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« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2019, 06:17:33 AM »

Councillors, a vote is now open on the following amendment

Amendment L 2:55 by tack50 to LC 2.4 A Bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

Quote
A bill to Exterminate Gun Violence

SECTION I: New regulations
1. The sale of any automatic firearms  is hereby prohibited in the Region of Lincoln.

1. The practice of concealed carry is hereby banned in all states and territories under the jurisdiction of Lincoln

2. Background checks shall be conducted by the reinstated Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL), as established by federal regulations on gun related background checks.

3. All residents of Lincoln convicted of a violent crime shall be banned from purchasing a gun or firearm for 15 years after the end of their sentence. Violent crimes include, but are not limited to: rape, murder, homicide, robbery, agression, aggravated assault, car theft, domestic violence, kidnapping, terrorism, terrorist threats, burglary and belonging to a drug cartel, gang or another violent illegal organization.

4. The Lincoln Gun Control Repeal Act of 2018 is hereby repealed



SECTION II: Reinstating the Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

1. The Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018 is hereby reinstated with the following amendments

Quote
Lincoln Gun Control Act of 2018

Section 1: Gun Licensing

i. A license shall be required to purchase and carry a firearm in the region of Lincoln.
ii. This license shall be required to be renewed every five years.
iii. There shall be three categories of gun licenses: Class A for handguns, Class B for rifles and shotguns, and Class C for assault rifles or other semi-automatic weapons.
iv. To obtain a Class A license, a citizen must not have committed a violent crime, must have proof of passing a handgun training and safety exam, and must be at least 18 years of age.
v. To obtain a Class B license, a citizen must meet Class A requirements as well as have not committed a felony, except for those only regarding finance, have proof of passing a shotgun/rifle training and safety exam, and pass a mental health test issued by a psychologist.
vi. To obtain a Class C license, a citizen must meet Class B requirements as well as having proof of a reasonable cause for having a Class C license, having proof of passing an assault weapon training and safety exam, and be at least 21 years of age.
vii. The testing materials for the exams in the sections above shall be distributed for free by the government of Lincoln through the internet
viii. The tests for the exams in the sections above shall be conducted at any facility that performs tests for driver's licenses. The government of Lincoln shall not charge any fees for performing this exam

Section 2: Bans
i. Bump stocks and suppressors shall also be considered prohibited to operate, purchase, sell, or possess by private citizens. Magazines with more then 10 rounds of ammunition are also prohibited.
ii. Any individual that possess, uses, sells or purchases any of the above devices may face a fine not exceeding $100,000 and jail sentence not exceeding 3 years for all convictions made at a single point in time.
iii. Any individual who made a specific threat against a specific a specific citizen, business or institution in Lincoln within the last 60 days from the time they attempt to squire a firearm in Lincoln.

Section 3: Firearm Gifting and Sale Liability
i. Any individual residing in Lincoln that gifts or sells a firearm to any individual that uses it to commit a violent crime may be held both civilly and criminally liable if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that they knew or ought to have known it was illegal for the individual to own or operate the firearm or that it would be used in a crime.

Section 4: Public School Security
i. All visitors as defined as a non-current student or faculty to a public school in Lincoln is must have any bags searched by a staff member situated at the front door before they are allowed to enter the School.

Section 5: Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing
i. The Bureau of Firearm Safety and Licensing (BFSL) is to be established.
ii. The BFSL shall have an NPC director that is appointed by the governor. The director is to handle hiring all other personnel. The governor can dissolve and reform the BFSL if deemed necessary.
iii. The BFSL is to oversee all proceedings of obtaining a firearms license and collect fines incurred from violations of gun laws.
iv. Collected fines are to be sent to a fund which is to be used to cover the government costs of licensing.


SECTION III: Implementation
1. This bill shall go into effect 1 month after passage.
2. Current gun owners shall be given a 2 year transition period where they can be allowed to keep and use their guns without a license.

Please vote AYE, NAY or Abstain
This vote shall last for 24 hours or until all Councillors have voted
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« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2019, 06:18:41 AM »

Aye
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