Opinion of the European Union

[OSR stands with Israel]

Clear HP in my opinion,  I  find the idea that they can pass laws what can override laws passed in member states nations terrible in every way possible.  It is a clear violation of the member state's sovereignty in every possible way.

In my opinion the EU should just be an free trade agreement and a military alliance but should not have the power to pass laws that apply to every nation in the EU .  I still wouldn't have voted for Brexit though as it lacked any details on how they would get out(Which is very important) .


I think a better thing would be is ,  the UK should have just passed a law in Parliament which said if there is a conflict between UK and EU law, the UK law is the one what will apply in the UK. Once they did that the US should made it clear they will side with the UK in that dispute , and then lets see what the EU would be able to do.

[Senator Incitatus]

HP, poses a threat to American hegemony.

[Lechasseur]

Pretty clearly HP at this point.

I mean, there are things I like about it, but it has been evolving in the wrong direction imo.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

[Beet]

Massive FF, but it needs to be more democratic.

Today everywhere, we see the rise of "nationalism". We are told we are headed towards a "clash of civilizations", and "great power politics". However there is one region of the world that has already gone through this, it is the region that invented the nation-state to begin with. Europe. And the EU is the product of this. The EU is the ultimate repudiation of nationalism and it is based on history. It is based on the lessons that Europe learned, that nationalism is the path to destruction. The EU has effectively ended great power struggles between the European nations. The EU is the future hope of international politics. The only question is how much destruction will occur before the rest of the world realizes this model is the correct one.

And yes-- there are nationalist groups rising in Europe, but they are ironically a very internationalist and cross-national movement.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

[America Needs R'hllor]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

This really is ridiculous. The US protection against the Soviets was an asset, but not the only thing that protected them from communism and definitely not from fascism. As for the assertion that Europe fought because it was made of monarchies... it's just historically inaccurate. Sure, becoming a continent of democracies helped, but if you ever hear a Romanian talk about Hungary, you'll understand just how important the EU was in binding that continent together and ensuring peace.

Lastly, you may think integration is crazy, but it doesn't make this a fact. You hold traditional views about sovereignity and isolation- and that's ok, Americans have always been pretty conservative. It doesn't mean it's an illegitimate idea. Everything you post about the Euopean Union is extremely American, and you need to put yourself in other's shoes and realize that the world outside your country has different traditions and doesn't have to resemble it.

[HillGoose]

FF, I wish the US would do the same thing with Mexico and Canada.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

This really is ridiculous. The US protection against the Soviets was an asset, but not the only thing that protected them from communism and definitely not from fascism. As for the assertion that Europe fought because it was made of monarchies... it's just historically inaccurate. Sure, becoming a continent of democracies helped, but if you ever hear a Romanian talk about Hungary, you'll understand just how important the EU was in binding that continent together and ensuring peace.

Lastly, you may think integration is crazy, but it doesn't make this a fact. You hold traditional views about sovereignity and isolation- and that's ok, Americans have always been pretty conservative. It doesn't mean it's an illegitimate idea. Everything you post about the Euopean Union is extremely American, and you need to put yourself in other's shoes and realize that the world outside your country has different traditions and doesn't have to resemble it.

- without US protection , all of Europe would have undoubtedly fallen to the Soviets . It was American presence in West Germany that stopped the Soviets from invading Western Europe in the first place .


- Monarchies usually result in more war cause they are mainly interested in expanding their power or afraid of losing their power especially in Europe


- Sure people talk bad about other nations but that doesn’t mean war


- Lastly I do believe something like the EU should exist it just should be a trade agreement and a military alliance

[America Needs R'hllor]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

This really is ridiculous. The US protection against the Soviets was an asset, but not the only thing that protected them from communism and definitely not from fascism. As for the assertion that Europe fought because it was made of monarchies... it's just historically inaccurate. Sure, becoming a continent of democracies helped, but if you ever hear a Romanian talk about Hungary, you'll understand just how important the EU was in binding that continent together and ensuring peace.

Lastly, you may think integration is crazy, but it doesn't make this a fact. You hold traditional views about sovereignity and isolation- and that's ok, Americans have always been pretty conservative. It doesn't mean it's an illegitimate idea. Everything you post about the Euopean Union is extremely American, and you need to put yourself in other's shoes and realize that the world outside your country has different traditions and doesn't have to resemble it.

- without US protection , all of Europe would have undoubtedly fallen to the Soviets . It was American presence in West Germany that stopped the Soviets from invading Western Europe in the first place .


- Monarchies usually result in more war cause they are mainly interested in expanding their power or afraid of losing their power especially in Europe


- Sure people talk bad about other nations but that doesn’t mean war


- Lastly I do believe something like the EU should exist it just should be a trade agreement and a military alliance

- The U.S. helped, but the policies Western Germany leaders took were a very important factor too, for example. Generally, the Europe-U.S. relationship has two sides that benefit, the U.S. isn't some pargon of charity and it does everything out of interest.

- Monarchies do usually mean more war. WW2 and many other European wars didn't involve monarchies (at least not absolute monarchies).

- It could definitely mean war. I could see the issue of Transylvania sparking a conflict, for example, but the EU prevents any threat to that. For the EU to be truly effective, it needs to be integrated, just free trade isn't possible to do. You can't expect free movement of goods and workers to happen without many other connections that, yes, demand some sovereignity to be given up.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

This really is ridiculous. The US protection against the Soviets was an asset, but not the only thing that protected them from communism and definitely not from fascism. As for the assertion that Europe fought because it was made of monarchies... it's just historically inaccurate. Sure, becoming a continent of democracies helped, but if you ever hear a Romanian talk about Hungary, you'll understand just how important the EU was in binding that continent together and ensuring peace.

Lastly, you may think integration is crazy, but it doesn't make this a fact. You hold traditional views about sovereignity and isolation- and that's ok, Americans have always been pretty conservative. It doesn't mean it's an illegitimate idea. Everything you post about the Euopean Union is extremely American, and you need to put yourself in other's shoes and realize that the world outside your country has different traditions and doesn't have to resemble it.

- without US protection , all of Europe would have undoubtedly fallen to the Soviets . It was American presence in West Germany that stopped the Soviets from invading Western Europe in the first place .


- Monarchies usually result in more war cause they are mainly interested in expanding their power or afraid of losing their power especially in Europe


- Sure people talk bad about other nations but that doesn’t mean war


- Lastly I do believe something like the EU should exist it just should be a trade agreement and a military alliance

- The U.S. helped, but the policies Western Germany leaders took were a very important factor too, for example. Generally, the Europe-U.S. relationship has two sides that benefit, the U.S. isn't some pargon of charity and it does everything out of interest.

- Monarchies do usually mean more war. WW2 and many other European wars didn't involve monarchies (at least not absolute monarchies).

- It could definitely mean war. I could see the issue of Transylvania sparking a conflict, for example, but the EU prevents any threat to that. For the EU to be truly effective, it needs to be integrated, just free trade isn't possible to do. You can't expect free movement of goods and workers to happen without many other connections that, yes, demand some sovereignity to be given up.

- I know it wasn’t charity , America defended Europe because it was in America’s interest to do so not cause of charity . But the fact is without America defending Europe , all of Europe would be communist . Even with America , WW3 would   have happened if it wasn’t for MAD

- WW2 happened because Germany was a fascist totalitarian dictatorship which like monarchies use war to expand their power. And if you want anyone to blame other than Germany for the war , the Europeans deserve by far the most blame for how they ended WW1 and their policies of appeasement. Without appeasement, the Nazis likely get removed from power  in 1937 .

- A military alliance and a free trade agreement would also stop chances of war . The fact that EU law trumps national laws in most cases when they differ actually makes tensions worse overtime not better . Trade and military alliances are what make things better not shredding sovereignty. 

[America Needs R'hllor]

Massive FF.

Sure, it has issues and problems, but overall, it's a huge, HUGE success story. Europe was blood-drenched continent where old scars and wounds caused and would cause again countless wars. The European Union brought something unprecedented and amazing to the continent- stable and long-term peace. With close connections formed on issues like trade, politics, laws and the military, and most importantly, by sacrificing some of that sacred "sovereignity", it managed to unite a continent and make it an island of peace in a still-troubled world. One of my professors once told us that when we Israelis mock the European Union, we should remember that while they managed to establish peace, we're going to a military campaign every year, so we should be more humble. Americans, who just recently started an unnecessary war that destroyed stability in a whole region, would do well to remember that too.

Europe long lasting peace is due to the US protecting it for 45 years from potential Soviet Invasion , and since then every one of their nations being a democracy . The reason they went to war before so often were because they were monarchies not because there wasn’t an organization like the EU that existed .

Sovereignty is extremely important, the idea that EU should have the power to override laws passed in member states nations is crazy . The members the people of Germany elect to to the EU parliament should not changes laws in the UK . The EU should be a trade agreement and  military alliance and nothing more .


Lastly the EU’s anti Americanism is another thing that makes them HP as well .

This really is ridiculous. The US protection against the Soviets was an asset, but not the only thing that protected them from communism and definitely not from fascism. As for the assertion that Europe fought because it was made of monarchies... it's just historically inaccurate. Sure, becoming a continent of democracies helped, but if you ever hear a Romanian talk about Hungary, you'll understand just how important the EU was in binding that continent together and ensuring peace.

Lastly, you may think integration is crazy, but it doesn't make this a fact. You hold traditional views about sovereignity and isolation- and that's ok, Americans have always been pretty conservative. It doesn't mean it's an illegitimate idea. Everything you post about the Euopean Union is extremely American, and you need to put yourself in other's shoes and realize that the world outside your country has different traditions and doesn't have to resemble it.

- without US protection , all of Europe would have undoubtedly fallen to the Soviets . It was American presence in West Germany that stopped the Soviets from invading Western Europe in the first place .


- Monarchies usually result in more war cause they are mainly interested in expanding their power or afraid of losing their power especially in Europe


- Sure people talk bad about other nations but that doesn’t mean war


- Lastly I do believe something like the EU should exist it just should be a trade agreement and a military alliance

- The U.S. helped, but the policies Western Germany leaders took were a very important factor too, for example. Generally, the Europe-U.S. relationship has two sides that benefit, the U.S. isn't some pargon of charity and it does everything out of interest.

- Monarchies do usually mean more war. WW2 and many other European wars didn't involve monarchies (at least not absolute monarchies).

- It could definitely mean war. I could see the issue of Transylvania sparking a conflict, for example, but the EU prevents any threat to that. For the EU to be truly effective, it needs to be integrated, just free trade isn't possible to do. You can't expect free movement of goods and workers to happen without many other connections that, yes, demand some sovereignity to be given up.

- I know it wasn’t charity , America defended Europe because it was in America’s interest to do so not cause of charity . But the fact is without America defending Europe , all of Europe would be communist . Even with America , WW3 would   have happened if it wasn’t for MAD

- WW2 happened because Germany was a fascist totalitarian dictatorship which like monarchies use war to expand their power. And if you want anyone to blame other than Germany for the war , the Europeans deserve by far the most blame for how they ended WW1 and their policies of appeasement. Without appeasement, the Nazis likely get removed from power  in 1937 .

- A military alliance and a free trade agreement would also stop chances of war . The fact that EU law trumps national laws in most cases when they differ actually makes tensions worse overtime not better . Trade and military alliances are what make things better not shredding sovereignty. 

Could the entire continent have been communist without the U.S.? Maybe, we don't know for sure. But in any case, it's absurd to demand just the two things you want- trade and alliance- without sacrificing anything. The world doesn't work like that. It's not so simple as "overriding national laws"- it's a complex system of integration that requires nations to sacrifice their sovereignity. In the end, sovereignity is the philosophy they chose- common regulations and laws go with fully free trade. We've seen how hard it is for a country to leave just the parts they want to leave. And of course, the Europeans are fully to blame for WW2 and WW1 and many other wars. That's why the EU did so many wonders for the continent. It binded them together in many ways, made them a single economic powerhouse rather than a cluster of declining countries with a bitter history. What you're suggesting wouldn't be enough.

[Wazza [INACTIVE]]

HP. A threat to national identity and sovereignty.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

This talk about a counter-factual concerning a Soviet invasion of Western Europe is far more intriguing than discussing the actual merits of the EU. My own two cents:
1. We have to define "without". Do we mean without NATO? With an isolationist US? Or with America simply not existing? Even in the case of an isolationist America, I can see Stalin perceiving an implicit threat of a large and prosperous capitalist power that had just come out pretty well for itself in WWII. From what I've heard and read of his thinking, he tended toward caution in foreign affairs (though, as with Korea, he was not always correct in his assumptions). And he's got to not only assume that the US won't intervene, he's also got to believe that he has something to benefit, and nothing to lose, with war with France, Great Britain, etc. I don't think he makes that calculation, even in our "OP Red Army" scenario laid out below.
2. If we somehow wipe the US entirely out of the Western front, we've still got a situation where the Red Army has sustained substantial losses defending its home turf. They might make it to Berlin if the Nazis collapse under sustained assault only from the East, but how much farther would they go?
3. It might have been possible to militarily overwhelm Europe--might; I'll add I'm no military scientist--but could he keep it? This isn't laying down a party apparatus in Alma-Ata and then having decades and a famine's worth of time to force nomadic people to comply. This is strolling into a densely populated landmass far from home with a very long history of its own political institutions and attempting to subvert it entirely. The Soviet army had just sustained among(?) the greatest losses in the war. Sure, he did it with Eastern Europe, but the Red Army was already there. I can instead see a sort of multi-polar Europe emerging, with a liberal/capitalist West led by Great Britain, a rump fascist coalition centered in Spain, France, or Italy, and a massive Communist bloc overseen at first by an over-extended Red Army battling a million little guerrilla armies. There's a substantial likelihood that liberalism in the remaining democratic states gives way to some sort of statist anti-communism.
4. So now we're at the point where we are assuming that the Red Army has reached.... Portugal!? And Great Britain? Some of these countries have very developed democratic practices and centuries of sovereignty. Not to speak ill of C/E Europe, but their sovereignty and democratic practices were both pretty fresh (though a number of them did have democratic spurts at one point or another, they sadly were not sustained). So I would venture to guess that we'd see a million Hungary-1956's, and in places far less reachable.
5. At some point, the Soviet political system is sclerotic, and the satellites rebel. Do we presume that they set up democracies?

EDIT: But what about Japan? Without a war in the Pacific, we're facing the possibility that imperial Japan succeeds, at least in the short run. If somehow they can effectively hold China's coastal cities and, thus (presumably) their main industrial capacity, they might pose a substantial threat in the Russian Far East (should they ever desire to take it). In that case our hypothetical fascist bloc in Europe, or the hypothetical capitalist alliance of the postwar period has a significantly strengthened hand, with the USSR now being the power facing the war on two fronts. And, if Japan succeeds amidst collapsing British, French, and Dutch empires, is there an anti-communist nationalism the Third World takes up instead of Soviet-sympathetic designs? Is this in the future weaponized against the "European" USSR? Of course, we face some of the exact same questions as with Russia--how long can they hold their colonies? In what form? Does an isolationist US stay that way forever?

My own take is that the USSR probably embarks on a more aggressive spree of funding and supporting Communist parties in Post-War Western Europe.

[Former President tack50]

Massive FF that has done a lot of good stuff for the continent. I most certainly can't imagine an EU abolishment; going back to hard borders, a return to the peseta (inb4 young people doing their math in euros like old people now lol), etc

Clear HP in my opinion,  I  find the idea that they can pass laws what can override laws passed in member states nations terrible in every way possible.  It is a clear violation of the member state's sovereignty in every possible way.

In my opinion the EU should just be an free trade agreement and a military alliance but should not have the power to pass laws that apply to every nation in the EU .  I still wouldn't have voted for Brexit though as it lacked any details on how they would get out(Which is very important) .


I think a better thing would be is ,  the UK should have just passed a law in Parliament which said if there is a conflict between UK and EU law, the UK law is the one what will apply in the UK. Once they did that the US should made it clear they will side with the UK in that dispute , and then lets see what the EU would be able to do.

Eh, doing uniform rules in all countries is the point of the EU. The sovereignty argument is one I don't really get. Participation in the EU is voluntary and anyone who wants to leave can do so (see: Brexit)

As for the hypothetical you describe (the UK nullifying EU laws it doesn't like), I don't really know what would happen. The UK would easily get its voting rights in the EU revoked, but beyond that who knows, the EU doesn't really have an expulsion process (though if done now, I imagine it would just push for a no deal Brexit, but before article 50 happened, no idea)

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Incompetent, Bureaucratic, Confusing, Complacent, Inflexible, Elitist and yet one of the most important and necessary political projects in the modern history of the continent.

[S019]

HP, it has way too much power and it is too difficult, to leave it

[Fight for Trump]

Beep boop is so dumb it hurts my head.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Mixed feelings, lean HP but we need a strong EU but not like how it is now. Right now, it dictates what countries needs to do and i dislike that, so lean HP.

[Tender Branson]

Generally FFU, but is in need of massive improvements.

[S019]

Beep boop is so dumb it hurts my head.

Is this referring to me or OSR

[parochial boy]

Yeah, I mean, for me national sovereignty is not an inherent good by itself. It is only worthwhile in so far as it can be used to the advantage of the inhabitants of the nation state, by upholding their standards or living, security and their ability to wield democratic authority. The way the modern world is means that nation states can no longer do this - because the economy is global, and issues affecting all of us are global - so there is no real moral imperative for moral sovereignty.

In order for us to be able to have any ability to maintain a genuine democracy, and to protect our own living standards, we inherently need a structure that is above the nation. So, while the EU is clearly lacking in democracy, clearly pushes bad economic policy and the like... well it is much easier to change what exists; especially considering that the will to reform it already does exist; than to burn it down and start again. Or to naïvely pretend we can have real democracy purely at the nation state level.

[Rules for me, but not for thee]

A failed experiment that's run by appointed authoritarians. Very HP.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I have several practical issues, namely I'd want the EU to become a truly democratic federative entity. The idea of "United States of Europe" always appealed to me.

In current form, I still vote Freedom Institution, if only due to massive improvements in my country since we joined. I've been growing up seeing what was before and what is now.

[Peanut]

Lol at some of the takes in this thread. Huge FF, of course.