Immigration hawks, where do you expect immigrants to come from?

[Indy Texas]

So much hand-wringing happens over the cultural compatibility of immigrants to the United States.

Republicans don't like immigrants from Latin America. They don't like immigrants from Africa, the Middle East or s#*&hole countries.

So where, exactly, do you expect immigrants to come from?

America used to attract a lot of European immigrants because Europe used to be a very poor, unstable place. Italy, Norway, Poland, Ireland, those were all basically s@#%hole countries up until at least the mid-20th century.

What is the incentive for anyone in Europe to uproot their entire life and move to the United States in 2019? Why would a Norwegian, who enjoys one of the highest per capita incomes in the world and has universal healthcare, move to the United States and lower their standard of living as a result?

Why would a poor person in Europe, where they can at least benefit from a generous safety net and basic necessities like healthcare, move to the United States where they would have none of that?

Immigration is a major, life-disrupting decision. People don't do it unless the payoff is significantly high. There simply isn't any payoff to moving from one high-income, industrialized country to another high-income, industrialized country. You don't gain anything you don't have at home, there's a big language barrier, and you're far away from your family and friends.

[Averroës Nix]

You may as well ask, "Pro-abortion people, where do you expect babies to come from?"

"Gun control advocates, where do you expect bullets to come from?"

"Protectionists, where do you expect US auto manufacturers to offshore their factories?

...and so on and so on.

[DavidB.]

Why do you think immigration hawks want any immigration?

[Santander]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

We don't want no godless Europeans. That's what we are trying to eliminate here.

[lfromnj]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

Also Worldwide individual taxation is literally one of the most Immoral things that exists in the United States.

[Santander]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

Also Worldwide individual taxation is literally one of the most Immoral things that exists in the United States.

Something we can agree on 💯

[Cassandra]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this post.

[Indy Texas]

Why do you think immigration hawks want any immigration?

If a country that does not have replacement-level fertility rejects all immigration, that is a country that has signed its own death warrant.

Why would anyone want to be like Japan, where entire towns are literally dying: maternity wards shuttered, schools abandoned and decaying, nothing to see anywhere but old pensioners shuffling along wistfully hoping their children who live in a major city will come visit them.

And, inevitably, fewer hands working to put food in elderly mouths that need feeding.

[Indy Texas]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

Also Worldwide individual taxation is literally one of the most Immoral things that exists in the United States.

You benefit from being an American whether you're in America or not, in a way that citizens of other countries do not from their respective countries.

Territorial taxation would just give rich people an opportunity to shift money abroad to avoid taxes.

[Santander]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

Also Worldwide individual taxation is literally one of the most Immoral things that exists in the United States.

You benefit from being an American whether you're in America or not, in a way that citizens of other countries do not from their respective countries.

Territorial taxation would just give rich people an opportunity to shift money abroad to avoid taxes.

Because that worked out so well for Otto Warmbier. Please enlighten us on this form of American Exceptionalism. Sharing a taxation system with Burma and Eritrea is not exactly a badge of honor.

[parochial boy]

I mean, there are plenty of reasons to immigrate somewhere that aren't to do with the immediate impact on your income: life experience, curiosity, even career development. I find it kind of sad that you would just assume that moving abroad is such a chore that it isn't worth doing. it is, and that is why millions of Europeans live in each other's countriies today.

Even the language barrier thing, that is such a quintessentially anglophone way of looking at things. I moved somewhere were I could barely speak the language at the start of this year, and in the space of
6 months I've got to a point where I can communicate well enough to at least get by. You just dive in, you make an effort, you learn - and at the end of it you get a fantastic skill that you keep for the rest of your life.

[Santander]

I mean, there are plenty of reasons to immigrate somewhere that aren't to do with the immediate impact on your income: life experience, curiosity, even career development.

That isn't immigration, that is international mobility. Expats aren't immigrants.

Immigrant, by definition, means taking up permanent residence in another country.

immigrant
NOUN
A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/immigrant

[parochial boy]

I mean, there are plenty of reasons to immigrate somewhere that aren't to do with the immediate impact on your income: life experience, curiosity, even career development.

That isn't immigration, that is international mobility. Expats aren't immigrants.

Immigrant, by definition, means taking up permanent residence in another country.

immigrant
NOUN
A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/immigrant

I would be inclined to disagree. In practice,Temporary guest workers get called "immigrants" in practice - and most countries differentiate between non-permanent and permanent residency status, but people in both groups would be refered to as immigrants.

Expat is just a term for nice middle class people in well paid jobs to feel better about themselves.

edit - also, I know so many cases of people who've been in the country for 3, 5, 8 years. They might stay, they might not. it's much complex than a short term move (especially as the traditional "expat package"  for employees assigned overseas barely exists any more. Or people who have retired abroad. They're all immigrants, it would be pretty disingineous to treat them as not being.

[Santander]

I would be inclined to disagree. In practice,Temporary guest workers get called "immigrants" in practice - and most countries differentiate between non-permanent and permanent residency status, but people in both groups would be refered to as immigrants.

Expat is just a term for nice middle class people in well paid jobs to feel better about themselves.

I grew up with and have lived most of my life as an expat (both the compound type and the integrated type), and my entire life as an immigrant. Nobody I have encountered, whether from an Anglo-Saxon country or not, developed country or not, considered themselves an immigrant until they put down roots. They just considered themselves foreigners or expats, including my current colleagues, the majority of whom were born in the UK.

With that being said, for the purposes of this thread, the distinction is not particularly relevant.

[parochial boy]

I would be inclined to disagree. In practice,Temporary guest workers get called "immigrants" in practice - and most countries differentiate between non-permanent and permanent residency status, but people in both groups would be refered to as immigrants.

Expat is just a term for nice middle class people in well paid jobs to feel better about themselves.

I grew up with and have lived most of my life as an expat (both the compound type and the integrated type), and my entire life as an immigrant. Nobody I have encountered, whether from an Anglo-Saxon country or not, developed country or not, considered themselves an immigrant until they put down roots. They just considered themselves foreigners or expats, including my current colleagues, the majority of whom were born in the UK.

I grew up as an immigrant too - and I know the phenomena that you're speaking of well. But the difference between how people perceive of themselves, and how they are perceived by the host country, is, well, it can be pretty drastic.

And of course, immigration statistics don't tend to differentiate there.

With that being said, for the purposes of this thread, the distinction is not particularly relevant.

yeah, true, but I think we can agree there are more reasons to live abroad than just wanting to be financially better off.

[Santander]

I grew up as an immigrant too - and I know the phenomena that you're speaking of well. But the difference between how people perceive of themselves, and how they are perceived by the host country, is, well, it can be pretty drastic.

And of course, immigration statistics don't tend to differentiate there.

I certainly agree on both accounts there.

[DavidB.]

Why do you think immigration hawks want any immigration?

If a country that does not have replacement-level fertility rejects all immigration, that is a country that has signed its own death warrant.

Not really true. A small but steady gradual decline, not too rapid, doesn't have to be bad. Less congestion, more space and the system will find an equilibrium. The effects of mass immigration are endlessly more harmful to society and will be more costly too.

But I absolutely think Western countries should take measures to at least approach replacement level fertility, and "immigration hawks" are probably more likely to support measures to that end than others.

[Senator Incitatus]

Why do you think immigration hawks want any immigration?

If a country that does not have replacement-level fertility rejects all immigration, that is a country that has signed its own death warrant.

Why would anyone want to be like Japan, where entire towns are literally dying: maternity wards shuttered, schools abandoned and decaying, nothing to see anywhere but old pensioners shuffling along wistfully hoping their children who live in a major city will come visit them.

And, inevitably, fewer hands working to put food in elderly mouths that need feeding.

...Declining population is not a death warrant. Certainly not for the United States.

[brucejoel99]

Bold of you to assume that immigration hawks might actually be supportive of immigration from somewhere.

[Epaminondas]

You may as well ask, "Pro-abortion people, where do you expect babies to come from?"

Often your snarky one-liner hit home, but here you win the dim-witted comment of the day.

Hint: there's no more "pro-abortion" stance among progressives than there is a "pro-death" position among conservatives.

Misnaming things only adds to the misery of the world - Albert Camus

[lfromnj]

Since EB-5 is so cheap, the US could attract a lot more quality middle-class immigrants if it did not have worldwide individual taxation.

Also Worldwide individual taxation is literally one of the most Immoral things that exists in the United States.

You benefit from being an American whether you're in America or not, in a way that citizens of other countries do not from their respective countries.

Territorial taxation would just give rich people an opportunity to shift money abroad to avoid taxes.

Uh it's literally slavery
 It makes taxation is theft a 100% valid argument for any natural citizens.

[HillGoose]

dude idk man maybe they think they will come from the woods or caves or something

[Waldo]

Literally anywhere, excluding the banned areas. America takes in one million legal immigrants every year, which is more than any other country in the world. Anyone trying to shame us into accepting illegal immigrants as well don't have a leg to stand on.

Liberals think that conservatives are against certain groups of immigrants... black, Latino, whatever. The only group we oppose is illegal. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are Latino. That's not our fault, and yet liberals will consistently use this as a way of misrepresenting the motives conservatives have.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Many of them  don't want immigrants, unless they're white.