UK General Discussion: 2019. Blackadder goes Brexit.

[DaWN]

Socialist Twitter seems to be up in arms about Jo Swinson not immediately dropping all demands and completely acquiescing to His Most High and Worshipful Highness Lord and Emperor Corbyn of Islington and his wonderful (non-European, of course) socialist paradise. Leaving aside everything else, I thought they didn't like it when Lib Dems acted spinelessly in the face of potential coalition partners?

[Blair]

The Lib Dem’s need to accept that you need someone anti no deal in No.10 to guarantee an extension, and that Labour will not let that be anyone other than the Leader of the Opposition.

LOTO need to understand that Corbyn is too toxic (and too much of a political goldmine) for the Lib Dem’s to put him into No.10.

We can guess where this ends...

[CumbrianLefty]

TIN and CHUK would be very uncomfortable with the man who basically ran them out of Labour Party being PM.

My only response to that is "diddums" quite frankly.

If the likes of Leslie and Gapes enable a Johnson no deal, they will be vilified by history.

Its their call.

[Pericles]

Swinson is right imo that it'd be wiser to make Clarke or Harman the caretaker PM. Corbyn is toxic with the current parliament, this is another unnecessary obstacle to stopping no-deal.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Corbyn can't be trusted to reliably oppose Brexit, and he can't be trusted to reliably give up power at the end of a "caretaker" tenure. Swinson is the only grownup in UK politics right now and I'd love to see her eventually become PM.

[Silent Hunter]

Swinson is right imo that it'd be wiser to make Clarke or Harman the caretaker PM. Corbyn is toxic with the current parliament, this is another unnecessary obstacle to stopping no-deal.

He is also toxic with the wider public.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Corbyn can't be trusted to reliably oppose Brexit, and he can't be trusted to reliably give up power at the end of a "caretaker" tenure.

It would be within the power of the opposition parties to instantly bring down his government at any time, lol. This isn't difficult.

As for the Lib Dems, their line that Corbyn can't be trusted to stop no deal for some reason doesn't make sense when there are SNP, Green, Plaid Cymru, Conservative and Independent MPs who have said they would consider it.

And the argument that Corbyn shouldn't have a go because only a unity candidate would work doesn't make sense when you take into account that there's around half a dozen pro-no deal Labour MPs who would have zero reason to support a Tory PM like Ken Clarke to stop Brexit happening.

[afleitch]

Margaret Beckett could do it.

[Zinneke]

TIN and CHUK would be very uncomfortable with the man who basically ran them out of Labour Party being PM.

My only response to that is "diddums" quite frankly.

If the likes of Leslie and Gapes enable a Johnson no deal, they will be vilified by history.

Its their call.

The idea that these two MPs would be remembered for being *the* reason No Deal happened is laughable. People will have forgotten about Change UK, and historians will highlight that Corbyn's leadership is what led to the desertion of MPs that eventually stopped him becoming PM.

[CumbrianLefty]

Its only recently that the SNP have finally shaken off being seen as bringing Thatcher to power in 1979.

And in Labour circles, Ramsay Macdonald is a pariah even now.

If even LibDems in the end come round to supporting Corbyn as PM for a few weeks, but the former Change UK MPs are seen to make the difference, rest assured that *will* be remembered by many.

[Zaybay]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

[Silent Hunter]

There are only 14 Lib Dem MPs. It isn't enough to get this idea over the line by a long chalk.

[Green Line]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

[Silent Hunter]

If Williamson is expelled, don't expect him to back Corbyn either.

[Zaybay]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

The Tories I was referring to were:
Guto Bebb
Dominic Grieve
Oliver Letwin
Nick Boles
Caroline Spelman

All are currently in talks with Corbyn on forming a Unity Government. Greening hasnt said anything yet so far.

[Green Line]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

The Tories I was referring to were:
Guto Bebb
Dominic Grieve
Oliver Letwin
Nick Boles
Caroline Spelman

All are currently in talks with Corbyn on forming a Unity Government. Greening hasnt said anything yet so far.

Oh.  Grieve has ruled out installing Corbyn though.

[Tintrlvr]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

The Tories I was referring to were:
Guto Bebb
Dominic Grieve
Oliver Letwin
Nick Boles
Caroline Spelman

All are currently in talks with Corbyn on forming a Unity Government. Greening hasnt said anything yet so far.

Not sure about the others but Grieve specifically ruled out supporting Corbyn for PM today. So he is out.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/16/dominic-grieve-jeremy-corbyn-no-10-labour-brexit

Maybe John McDonnell would be the "compromise" PM? Lets the anti-Corbynites say they didn't install Corbyn but still installs someone who is viewed as a friend by the Corbyn faction.

[Zaybay]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

The Tories I was referring to were:
Guto Bebb
Dominic Grieve
Oliver Letwin
Nick Boles
Caroline Spelman

All are currently in talks with Corbyn on forming a Unity Government. Greening hasnt said anything yet so far.

Oh.  Grieve has ruled out installing Corbyn though.

Ah, found the article on that. So I guess its more 4 Tory supporters.

I agree that this Unity Government is likely not going to pass at all, but the optics arent favorable to the holdouts.

[Dereich]

Looks like a 'between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place' scenario for the Lib Dems. The publicity of their semi-refusal to join a Unity Government hasnt been playing well on the media so far and, if this situation were to escalate, could damage their reputation as a Remain Party.

On the other hand, the leadership of the Lib Dems is opposed to working with Corbyn on this issue and, even though many backbencher Lib Dem MPs are fine with this deal, without their approval a deal can never happen. The only way the Lib Dem leadership would withdraw their insecurities about an alliance would be if Corbyn were not the PM, but if such a demand were made Labour would probably just recind their idea of a Unity Government. This isnt helped by the fact that the SNP, Greens, Plaid Cleen, and even about 5 or so Tories are fine with the idea of Corbyn as a caretaker and are in talks to form such a government(diminishing the bargaining power of the Lib Dems and increasing the leverage of the Labour Party).

I dont know how this situation will resolve itself, or if this idea will even be in the spotlight for more than a week, but so far the situation has developed not necessarily to the Lib Dem's advantage.

I've only heard of one Tory, Guto Bebb, who is willing to put Corbyn into office so far.  Maybe more will come out, like Greening, who has been quiet for a month now.  I think she's not yet given up on returning to the front bench in a future Tory govt. though, so I can't see her doing it.

I don't see any reason to believe that the former Labour independents like Ian Austin, Frank Field, etc. would ever vote Corbyn into office either for that matter, along with some of the Tiggers who despise him.  Corbyn is a non starter in this parliament.

The Tories I was referring to were:
Guto Bebb
Dominic Grieve
Oliver Letwin
Nick Boles
Caroline Spelman

All are currently in talks with Corbyn on forming a Unity Government. Greening hasnt said anything yet so far.

Oh.  Grieve has ruled out installing Corbyn though.

Ah, found the article on that. So I guess its more 4 Tory supporters.

I agree that this Unity Government is likely not going to pass at all, but the optics arent favorable to the holdouts.

Spelman has also ruled out voting for Corbyn.

[CumbrianLefty]

Corbyn can't be trusted to reliably oppose Brexit, and he can't be trusted to reliably give up power at the end of a "caretaker" tenure.

Sorry, but this is pure derangement.

How do you think he could hold on in those circumstances, even if he wanted to??

(which he wouldn't, but anyway)

This isn't Czechoslovakia in 1948 and he isn't Klement Gottwald.

[Oryxslayer]

Any caretaker government could be brought down by any one MP or faction, which is why it is a caretaker government. It would prevent anyone from occupying number 10 for any longer than the convenient alliance between the jumble of opposition parties and the insurgent Tories needed. However, what we are seeing now is I think being misinterpreted - this is public negotiations. In a coalition government power lies in two spots: the largest unified body of support, and the most insurgent group who would not be there if not for the need to get 50%+1. In a government with a expected lifespan of a month, max, the only thing to negotiate for is perhaps who will lead, and so a compromise needs to happen. Maybe there are other things that can be guaranteed for a month, even if the PM remains one person or another. Either way, that's how coalitions always form, they are never one party acquiescing to every demand of the other(s).  If you get these negotiations done now, then the front will be ready for the crisis when government returns.

[DaWN]

The Lib Dems have an unenviable choice here but I think it's pretty clear what they should do. Back down and put the senile hard-Brexiteering lunatic in office and they lose every vote they have gained since early this year, and it's the end of them as a political force. The short term losses incurred by screaming Twitter Socialists and the media are far from ideal but the lesser of two bad choices here.

In any case, given the Labour response to all this has been 'acquiesce to every demand we make or f!ck off,' I think there's a good chance the response will be 'ok, f!ck off' and none of this crap will happen anyway. Although these are very strange times and I've been wrong before.

And lastly, of course Corbyn will give up power if required. Even I'm prepared to give him that much.

[CumbrianLefty]

The Lib Dems have an unenviable choice here but I think it's pretty clear what they should do. Back down and put the senile hard-Brexiteering lunatic in office and they lose every vote they have gained since early this year

As polls confirm, they have gained a lot of that support from Labour.

And that isn't - whatever some may like to believe - because those people have been (re)converted to the virtues of neoliberal centrism, it is because many of them are very worried about Brexit (especially the prospect of crashing out without a deal) and came to view the once quite effective Labour/Corbyn "constructive ambiguity" on the topic as more like evasion and duplicity.

Corbyn putting Swinson on the spot like this was thus smart politics as well as objectively the right thing to do to maximise the chances of avoiding no deal. Always a good combination.

And she handled it poorly, too many LibDems have let the Euro elections especially go to their heads.

[Silent Hunter]

Some of us are also very unhappy with the antisemitism problems in Labour.

[CumbrianLefty]

Some of us are also very unhappy with the antisemitism problems in Labour.

Yes, fully accept that. Which doesn't mean I will agree with you in all particulars about the nature of the problem or how it should be dealt with.