India revokes Kashmir’s and Jammu’s special status

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/kashmir-unrest-amit-shah-parliament-reservation-bill-amendment-artcle-370-1577275-2019-08-05


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/india-introduces-plan-to-end-kashmirs-special-status.html

Great News

[urutzizu]

Bad, Bad decision. India seems to be hell bent to try what China has done in Xinjiang. The Abolition of Article 370&35A would allow for people from other parts of (hindu-majority) India to be settled in Kashmir and permanently change its demographics from Muslim to Hindu, something that was previously restricted under J&Kashmirs laws.

If you impose permanent martial law, imprison even the moderate political leaders and take away their autonomy, then that is how you create terrorists.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Wtf, all I can say is prepare for more pulwamas.

[Former President tack50]

Bad, Bad decision. India seems to be hell bent to try what China has done in Xinjiang. The Abolition of Article 370&35A would allow for people from other parts of (hindu-majority) India to be settled in Kashmir and permanently change its demographics from Muslim to Hindu, something that was previously restricted under J&Kashmirs laws.

If you impose permanent martial law, imprison even the moderate political leaders and take away their autonomy, then that is how you create terrorists.

Uh, not really? People from say, Mumbai or anywhere else in India should have every right to settle in J&K. India is still a single country after all.

Just like Americans from California should have the right to settle in Mississippi or Germans from Saxony should have the right to settle in Hamburg for example.

Removing autonomy and cracking down is a bad idea I agree though.

[Zaybay]

This isnt going to end well....

[urutzizu]

Uh, not really? People from say, Mumbai or anywhere else in India should have every right to settle in J&K. India is still a single country after all.

Just like Americans from California should have the right to settle in Mississippi or Germans from Saxony should have the right to settle in Hamburg for example.

Removing autonomy and cracking down is a bad idea I agree though.

Jammu and Kashmir is not really comparable to those two. The Instrument of Accession ( i.e. the Treaty under which J&K was incorporated into India) forsees the special Automous status that no other state in India has, that allows it to restrict Immigration from other States. The issue is not Labour or economic migration or any of this. No person would immigrate to J&K for these reasons. The only reason for which people, Hindus namely, would immigrate to J&k is for political /demographic reasons, like the settlers in the west bank. The Government would encourage this of course. As the only Muslim State in India, with a distinct national identity, Kashmiris would soon become a minority in their own state/country. This is the objective of the Indian Government.

[JA]

• The region is being split into two: one with a state legislature and one directly controlled by the Indian government
• Article 35A of India's Constitution allowed Kashmir and Jammu's local legislature to define permanent residents of the region. This was signed into effect by a Presidential decree in 1954.
• Article 370 of India's Constitution forbids Indians from outside of the state from accessing the rights and privileges of local residency and the state
• The complaint of those who don't want this law to change believe the Indian government is doing this as a way of flooding the state with Hindu residents to replace the native Muslim populace
• Under the original agreement signed when Kashmir was admitted into the Indian union of states, India was solely to manage external affairs of Kashmir and a referendum was to soon be held determining the future of Kashmir
• Further discussions resulted in a 1952 agreement whereby Kashmiris would retain special privileges within their state as part of the deal to remain in the Indian union

Now, India is violating the agreement it had made with Kashmir during the former's accession to the Indian union. There was a signed agreement and Presidential decrees ensuring the continued special privileges of Kashmir, but that is now being revoked by a Hindu supremacist President during a period of increasing Hindu nationalism throughout India. The objective of this is obvious - the consolidation of Hindu power in the Kashmir region.

• 10,000-70,000 Indian troops have been sent into Kashmir in the past 10 days, only adding to the already existing 500,000 troops in the region
• There will be no movement of the public, all educational institutions will remain closed, all public meetings and rallies are prohibited
• Elected representatives from Kashmir have taken to Twitter to voice their outrage at being placed under house arrest
• Private mobile networks, internet services, and telephone lines have been cut; only the Indian government-operated internet and telephone services are operational

India has finally completely turned Kashmir into an occupied territory as it begins its Hindu nationalist agenda of consolidating power over the region in blatant violation of previously signed agreements and the demographic transformation of the formerly semi-autonomous region through replacement of its local inhabitants and stripping them of their political power. The result will be a serious escalation within the region as Pakistan and Kashmiris respond to this all-out assault on their autonomy and freedom.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is obviously a very bad idea and is more-or-less the definition of asking for trouble.

However, there is one little detail that is important to add with respect to the vexed matter of demographics: they have not remained essentially unaltered since 1947. There was a Hindu minority - the Kashmiri Pandits - in the Kashmir Valley, comprising about 5% of the population, but they left en masse in the late 80s/early 90s in what was a clear-cut case of ethnic cleansing.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

• The region is being split into two: one with a state legislature and one directly controlled by the Indian government
• Article 35A of India's Constitution allowed Kashmir and Jammu's local legislature to define permanent residents of the region. This was signed into effect by a Presidential decree in 1954.
• Article 370 of India's Constitution forbids Indians from outside of the state from accessing the rights and privileges of local residency and the state
• The complaint of those who don't want this law to change believe the Indian government is doing this as a way of flooding the state with Hindu residents to replace the native Muslim populace
• Under the original agreement signed when Kashmir was admitted into the Indian union of states, India was solely to manage external affairs of Kashmir and a referendum was to soon be held determining the future of Kashmir
• Further discussions resulted in a 1952 agreement whereby Kashmiris would retain special privileges within their state as part of the deal to remain in the Indian union

Now, India is violating the agreement it had made with Kashmir during the former's accession to the Indian union. There was a signed agreement and Presidential decrees ensuring the continued special privileges of Kashmir, but that is now being revoked by a Hindu supremacist President during a period of increasing Hindu nationalism throughout India. The objective of this is obvious - the consolidation of Hindu power in the Kashmir region.

• 10,000-70,000 Indian troops have been sent into Kashmir in the past 10 days, only adding to the already existing 500,000 troops in the region
• There will be no movement of the public, all educational institutions will remain closed, all public meetings and rallies are prohibited
• Elected representatives from Kashmir have taken to Twitter to voice their outrage at being placed under house arrest
• Private mobile networks, internet services, and telephone lines have been cut; only the Indian government-operated internet and telephone services are operational

India has finally completely turned Kashmir into an occupied territory as it begins its Hindu nationalist agenda of consolidating power over the region in blatant violation of previously signed agreements and the demographic transformation of the formerly semi-autonomous region through replacement of its local inhabitants and stripping them of their political power. The result will be a serious escalation within the region as Pakistan and Kashmiris respond to this all-out assault on their autonomy and freedom.

Something something Pakistan and muslims are irredeemably 100% evil and India is a pure secular democracy that can do no wrong so this is ok.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The only reason for which people, Hindus namely, would immigrate to J&k is for political /demographic reasons, like the settlers in the west bank.

Actually a pretty high proportion of those (particularly the Russians) are there for basically economic reasons: cheap housing developments.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Incidentally, movement towards greater central control of Kashmir on the Indian side of the boundary is a somewhat ironic case of cross-border administrative harmonisation: the Pakistani-occupied parts of the state are in essence run direct from the centre (though with Mickey Mouse provincial legislatures). They don't even elect MPs.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Jobs and Housing is certainly not a reason of settlement in Kashmir however.

Quite the opposite, one suspects.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Bad, Bad decision. India seems to be hell bent to try what China has done in Xinjiang. The Abolition of Article 370&35A would allow for people from other parts of (hindu-majority) India to be settled in Kashmir and permanently change its demographics from Muslim to Hindu, something that was previously restricted under J&Kashmirs laws.

If you impose permanent martial law, imprison even the moderate political leaders and take away their autonomy, then that is how you create terrorists.

Um what’s so bad about giving people the right to move wherever they want in their own nation .

[OSR stands with Israel]

Such is Hindu nature...

Dude no

Why not? Stand with your people against the enemy.

Hindus are not my enemy

Bagel and Santander are very much representative of the split in the Kashmiri resistance movement: It did not use to be sectarian, it was mostly secular actually. In the 90s this changed, especially with the Hindu pandit expulsion. The indian administration has used this in very Machiavellian ways: similar to what Assad did with the opposition, they have tried to poison the Kashmiri movement, by cracking down hard on the secular militants and inflaming the sectarian nature of the conflict. Now most of the Kashmiri militants are extremist Islamists, and this has led to the discrediting of the Kashmiri cause in much of the West. In that sense the Indian Government has been successful.

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

[PSOL]

As always, I stand with the indigenous residents against blatant settler-colonialism by the Hindutva supremacist state supposedly working for the interest of the people of the Indian subcontinent. This is blatant land theft, pure and simple.

[urutzizu]

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

You mean as in Netanyahu tacitly tolerates Hamas rule in the Gaza strip, because it discredits the palestinians and makes a palestinian state very unlikely? That is a interesting point.


One more thing i would like to add: Kashmir is actually not the only state to impose internal Immigration restrictions: The small christian-majority states in the north-east of India have them too. They have never been controversial and are supported by the central government. Only with Kashmir it is an issue, for reasons that hardly need explaining.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

You mean as in Netanyahu tacitly tolerates Hamas rule in the Gaza strip, because it discredits the palestinians and makes a palestinian state very unlikely? That is a interesting point.


One more thing i would like to add: Kashmir is actually not the only state to impose internal Immigration restrictions: The small christian-majority states in the north-east of India have them too. They have never been controversial and are supported by the central government. Only with Kashmir it is an issue, for reasons that hardly need explaining.

Ok what would be your reaction if Texas or some other state arbitrarily bans people from other states from moving in .


Kashmir is part of India so yes Indians from all around India should be allowed to move in

[PSOL]

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

You mean as in Netanyahu tacitly tolerates Hamas rule in the Gaza strip, because it discredits the palestinians and makes a palestinian state very unlikely? That is a interesting point.


One more thing i would like to add: Kashmir is actually not the only state to impose internal Immigration restrictions: The small christian-majority states in the north-east of India have them too. They have never been controversial and are supported by the central government. Only with Kashmir it is an issue, for reasons that hardly need explaining.

Ok what would be your reaction if Texas or some other state arbitrarily bans people from other states from moving in .


Kashmir is part of India so yes Indians from all around India should be allowed to move in

The (at least White) people of Texas are given full rights under our law system. Meanwhile, the Kashmiris live under an oppressive regime that rapes, beats down, and marginalizes them at any and every moment.

This thread is a glaring example of exactly how this attitude of oppressive indifference transcends borders into the politics of other nations.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

You mean as in Netanyahu tacitly tolerates Hamas rule in the Gaza strip, because it discredits the palestinians and makes a palestinian state very unlikely? That is a interesting point.


One more thing i would like to add: Kashmir is actually not the only state to impose internal Immigration restrictions: The small christian-majority states in the north-east of India have them too. They have never been controversial and are supported by the central government. Only with Kashmir it is an issue, for reasons that hardly need explaining.

Ok what would be your reaction if Texas or some other state arbitrarily bans people from other states from moving in .


Kashmir is part of India so yes Indians from all around India should be allowed to move in

The (at least White) people of Texas are given full rights under our law system. Meanwhile, the Kashmiris live under an oppressive regime that rapes, beats down, and marginalizes them at any and every moment.

This thread is a glaring example of exactly how this attitude of oppressive indifference transcends borders into the politics of other nations.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/indians-are-not-descendants-of-aryans-study-148337-2011-12-10


The people who currently living in India are indigenous.



I talked to my dad about this and he said people who oppose this while they support liberal immigration policies are being hypocritical and said all his friends who support even congress support this .


 He also said that reason this is done is once the US leaves Afghanistan , the only nation who can deal with terrorism in the region is India so they are taking actions to deal with it so Tailban insurgents don’t come to Kashmir and commit attacks in India . He said like Israel , India has to take strong actions to stop radical Islamic terrorists from committing attacks .


Lastly he said it clear that Kashmir is part of India and always has been so it should be a full state .

 

[Person Man]

I don't think that this is a good decision but I respect India's right to do this. This is definitely a huge gamble. If there isn't this huge wave of terrorism hitting in India in the coming months in years, it would probably turn out to be a great decision. I really don't think we should be leaving Afghanistan. If India wants to deal with what we have been dealing with for the last almost 20 years, bully to them.

All of this being said, this is probably taking an unacceptable risk. However, if this is the issue that kept you power, you pretty much have to do this. 

[lfromnj]

Bad, Bad decision. India seems to be hell bent to try what China has done in Xinjiang. The Abolition of Article 370&35A would allow for people from other parts of (hindu-majority) India to be settled in Kashmir and permanently change its demographics from Muslim to Hindu, something that was previously restricted under J&Kashmirs laws.

If you impose permanent martial law, imprison even the moderate political leaders and take away their autonomy, then that is how you create terrorists.

Uh, not really? People from say, Mumbai or anywhere else in India should have every right to settle in J&K. India is still a single country after all.

Just like Americans from California should have the right to settle in Mississippi or Germans from Saxony should have the right to settle in Hamburg for example.

Removing autonomy and cracking down is a bad idea I agree though.

A better example is Americans and American Samoa. IDGAF about your "culture" If  I got the cash to purchase land and someone wants to sell it, I should be allowed.

[urutzizu]

Lastly he said it clear that Kashmir is part of India and always has been so it should be a full state .  

I am going to stop you right here: J&K is actually going to lose its statehood. It is going to become split up and there will be two Union Territories, not States, in its place. J&K will actually have less Autonomy than a State, Ladakh no self rule whatsoever, rather than just be be downgraded to a normal Indian state.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Such is Hindu nature...

Dude no

Why not? Stand with your people against the enemy.

The real enemy is China , they have basically turned Pakistan into a puppet and due to that peace won’t happen cause it’s not in the Chinese interest for that to happen even though it’s in the interest of Indian people and Pakistani people for that to happen .


China has become the new Soviet Union they just aren’t as blatant about it , and they aren’t as obviously evil as well . But they are slowly getting exposed

I'm quite tired of blaming places like England (even with as much as I hate England) and China for civil tension in the subcontinent. At the end of the day we are our own biggest enemies, and we should all grow up and learn to accept that it is our fault for not getting along.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I don't think that this is a good decision but I respect India's right to do this. This is definitely a huge gamble. If there isn't this huge wave of terrorism hitting in India in the coming months in years, it would probably turn out to be a great decision. I really don't think we should be leaving Afghanistan. If India wants to deal with what we have been dealing with for the last almost 20 years, bully to them.

All of this being said, this is probably taking an unacceptable risk. However, if this is the issue that kept you power, you pretty much have to do this. 

India has no choice but to deal with it since they are extremely close to that region . On the other hand the US just cannot stay in Afghanistan forever so India has to prepare for the day when we leave .

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

I would actually compare this to Israel vs Palestine ,with now India fully taking the Israel role (which is good)

You mean as in Netanyahu tacitly tolerates Hamas rule in the Gaza strip, because it discredits the palestinians and makes a palestinian state very unlikely? That is a interesting point.


One more thing i would like to add: Kashmir is actually not the only state to impose internal Immigration restrictions: The small christian-majority states in the north-east of India have them too. They have never been controversial and are supported by the central government. Only with Kashmir it is an issue, for reasons that hardly need explaining.

Ok what would be your reaction if Texas or some other state arbitrarily bans people from other states from moving in .


Kashmir is part of India so yes Indians from all around India should be allowed to move in

The (at least White) people of Texas are given full rights under our law system. Meanwhile, the Kashmiris live under an oppressive regime that rapes, beats down, and marginalizes them at any and every moment.

This thread is a glaring example of exactly how this attitude of oppressive indifference transcends borders into the politics of other nations.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/indians-are-not-descendants-of-aryans-study-148337-2011-12-10


The people who currently living in India are indigenous.



I talked to my dad about this and he said people who oppose this while they support liberal immigration policies are being hypocritical and said all his friends who support even congress support this .


 He also said that reason this is done is once the US leaves Afghanistan , the only nation who can deal with terrorism in the region is India so they are taking actions to deal with it so Tailban insurgents don’t come to Kashmir and commit attacks in India . He said like Israel , India has to take strong actions to stop radical Islamic terrorists from committing attacks .


Lastly he said it clear that Kashmir is part of India and always has been so it should be a full state .

 

It's already kind of happening now, granted those militants in Kashmir are mostly not like the brand name Taliban, they are like generic or knockoff brands of them (also most aren't ethnic pashtuns) and the conditions in places like the territories and Kashmir make for prime breeding ground for these types of groups to grow. Multiple groups on both sides are at fault for this obviously, and India is certainly one, and they could be doing better to help stop it.