Canada: Liberals promise full handgun ban
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  Canada: Liberals promise full handgun ban
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Author Topic: Canada: Liberals promise full handgun ban  (Read 8341 times)
Joe Republic
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« on: December 08, 2005, 07:56:38 PM »
« edited: December 08, 2005, 08:19:40 PM by Joe Republic »

Source

Canada's Liberals promise complete ban on handguns

Dec 8, 2005 — By Jeffrey Hodgson

TORONTO (Reuters) - Canada's ruling Liberals, under pressure to clamp down on gun violence in big cities, will move to ban all handguns if they win the January 23 election, Prime Minister Paul Martin said on Thursday.

Canada already has extremely restrictive firearms legislation, but under the Liberal proposal only police and some security officers would be allowed to carry handguns.

So far this year some 50 young men — most of them black — have been shot dead in Toronto. Some government officials blame the problem in part on smuggling of handguns from neighboring United States.

"I've come to the conclusion that significant change is needed. I've come to the conclusion that we should ban handguns," Martin told a rally in one of the most violent areas of Toronto.

"Handguns kill people. That's why they exist. They are taking too many Canadian lives," he said.

Canada's murder rate is about one third of that in the United States but there is rising fear about gun crime in Toronto, traditionally a stronghold for the Liberals.

Martin — saying many handguns used in violent crimes had been stolen from collectors — made clear collectors would be given a certain amount of time to sell, get rid of or disarm their guns. An amnesty program would also be set up to pay people who handed in their illegal handguns.

He said there would be a "narrow exemption for legitimate target shooters" but gave no further details.

His minority Liberal government was brought down by a corruption scandal last month and polls show he is likely to be returned next month with another minority, which means he will be forced to rely on opposition parties to govern.

Opposition parties dismissed the plan as a gimmick. The left-leaning New Democrats, who backed Martin for much of the year, said the Liberals had cut police funding and social programs designed to help vulnerable members of society.

"The last-minute Liberals want Canadians to believe they are here to fix the problems that have grown over their 12 years of running the country," it said in a statement. The Liberals have been in power since late 1993.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 08:01:30 PM »

"Handguns kill people. That's why they exist. They are taking too many Canadian lives," he said.
Martin speaks as if the sole purpose of handguns is to murder. That is not true; they are very useful for self-defense.
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Platypus
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 08:06:59 PM »

no, he said they exist to kill. They were designed and continue to exist for the purpose of killing. I applaud this latest move, and whilst in America there might be horrific levels of gun violence, there isn't in Canada yet, and I can only support attempts to stop it from occuring in the future.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 08:10:06 PM »

How is saying that handguns exist only to kill different from saying that the sole purpose of handguns is killing?

They also exist to help people defend themselves. A ban on handguns will not necessarily have beneficial effects. For example, in the United Kingdom, gun-related violence has experienced considerable increase since a handgun ban was enacted in 1997.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2005, 08:12:51 PM »

This is good news, but I'm still not voting Liberal.
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Gabu
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2005, 08:13:45 PM »

This is good news, but I'm still not voting Liberal.

C'mon, you know you want to. Wink
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Everett
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2005, 08:16:02 PM »

Fascists.
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Platypus
hughento
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2005, 08:16:57 PM »
« Edited: December 08, 2005, 08:24:09 PM by hughento »

Whilst in Australia...



Guess when the gun control laws were introduced?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/01/02/1072908906612.html

"Homicides dropped to 47 in 2001 from 84 in 1991, accidental deaths dropped to 18 from 29, while other forms of firearm deaths slipped to seven from 11. "

more then a third for homicides and accidental deaths. Gun control saves lives.

"In 1996, 521 people died from gun-inflicted wounds, while in 1997 this dropped to 437."

Even excluding the Port Arthur massacre, that's a significant drop.

edited in the following info, from a not perfect source, but I have no reason to doubt it's authenticity at this time:

Gun deaths in USA, 2001: 29,573. Population, ~285,500,000.

Gun deaths in Australia, 2001: 333. Population, ~19,500,000.

So, at about a 15th of the population of America, we should have a 15th of the gun deaths. 29,573 divided by 15=1971.533. That's higher then the Austealian figure before the gun laws, but it's certainly a lot closer to that then current figures. Both nations have a violent past and similar histories; the only real difference is that Americans were brainwashed to think everyone had to have a gun.
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Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2005, 08:18:44 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
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Everett
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2005, 08:19:33 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.
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Gabu
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2005, 08:21:41 PM »


As someone from Canada, I've always personally found America's fascination with guns as odd as most Americans likely find Canada's lack thereof.  Gun ownership has never really been all that big of a thing here anyway, so it's not like this idea would encroach on millions' very way of life.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2005, 08:22:09 PM »

"Homicides dropped to 47 in 2001 from 84 in 1991, accidental deaths dropped to 18 from 29, while other forms of firearm deaths slipped to seven from 11. "
Eleven fewer accidental deaths? That hardly seems like a significant change.

In any event, I do not feel that your comparison is complete. Sure, I will accept that the number of accidental deaths will reduce due if gun control is introduced. But that is not the whole picture; one must also consider the number of lives saved by the use of guns in self-defense.
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Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2005, 08:22:56 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I personally like the freedom of going anywhere I wish without the threat of being gangraped by a bunch of Libertarians. Guns take away more freedom than they give.
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Gabu
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2005, 08:24:32 PM »

"Homicides dropped to 47 in 2001 from 84 in 1991, accidental deaths dropped to 18 from 29, while other forms of firearm deaths slipped to seven from 11. "
Eleven fewer accidental deaths? That hardly seems like a significant change.

In any event, I do not feel that your comparison is complete. Sure, I will accept that the number of accidental deaths will reduce due if gun control is introduced. But that is not the whole picture; one must also consider the number of lives saved by the use of guns in self-defense.

His post also stated that the rate of homicides was nearly cut in half.
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Platypus
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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2005, 08:26:06 PM »

"Homicides dropped to 47 in 2001 from 84 in 1991, accidental deaths dropped to 18 from 29, while other forms of firearm deaths slipped to seven from 11. "
Eleven fewer accidental deaths? That hardly seems like a significant change.

In any event, I do not feel that your comparison is complete. Sure, I will accept that the number of accidental deaths will reduce due if gun control is introduced. But that is not the whole picture; one must also consider the number of lives saved by the use of guns in self-defense.

our murder rate is also significantly lower then America's-even if guns do save a couple of people's lives, obviously they are a significantly less important factor.
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Everett
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 08:26:55 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I personally like the freedom of going anywhere I wish without the threat of being gangraped by a bunch of Libertarians. Guns take away more freedom than they give.
That's great to hear. Now try living where I live and see if you can say the same. If I lived in a cute, comfy safe zone, then I could say the same, but I don't, and you can't tell me that it's because guns are legal here. Just look at San Francisco's recent gun ban.

Tell me, if you were me and lived in the neighbourhood that I do, would you be dumb enough to think "la la la I can walk around wherever I want and nothing will happen"? I'm not a dumbass. I don't want to get raped or attacked. If you seriously think that it would be better for me to end up dead or raped because oh maigawdliek guns r bad!!!! omgscary!!!1, then good for you, I guess, but I'm not an idiot.
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Platypus
hughento
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 08:28:14 PM »

you are an idiot if you choose to live in a place where you have to fear death at the hands of your fellow citizens when walking at night.
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Everett
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2005, 08:29:08 PM »

you are an idiot if you choose to live in a place where you have to fear death at the hands of your fellow citizens when walking at night.
Give me money and I will move somewhere else.

Also, consider this - for all of Earl's feminist bitchery, he seems to completely disregard the increased potential for single, young women to get attacked whilst outside at night in a big city. Maybe you have nothing to fear, but I certainly do.
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Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2005, 08:30:54 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I personally like the freedom of going anywhere I wish without the threat of being gangraped by a bunch of Libertarians. Guns take away more freedom than they give.
That's great to hear. Now try living where I live and see if you can say the same. If I lived in a cute, comfy safe zone, then I could say the same, but I don't, and you can't tell me that it's because guns are legal here. Just look at San Francisco's recent gun ban.

Tell me, if you were me and lived in the neighbourhood that I do, would you be dumb enough to think "la la la I can walk around wherever I want and nothing will happen"? I'm not a dumbass. I don't want to get raped or attacked. If you seriously think that it would be better for me to end up dead or raped because oh maigawdliek guns r bad!!!! omgscary!!!1, then good for you, I guess, but I'm not an idiot.

It's pretty safe in my entire city, and pretty much most places in Canada except for Jane & Finch in Toronto and Hastings & Main in Vancouver. I think the correlation is obvious.
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CheeseWhiz
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2005, 08:32:08 PM »

Any of you Gun Control people think about how the person who would be murdering or threatening you with a gun is a criminal, someone who doesn’t obey the law?
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Everett
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2005, 08:32:52 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I personally like the freedom of going anywhere I wish without the threat of being gangraped by a bunch of Libertarians. Guns take away more freedom than they give.
That's great to hear. Now try living where I live and see if you can say the same. If I lived in a cute, comfy safe zone, then I could say the same, but I don't, and you can't tell me that it's because guns are legal here. Just look at San Francisco's recent gun ban.

Tell me, if you were me and lived in the neighbourhood that I do, would you be dumb enough to think "la la la I can walk around wherever I want and nothing will happen"? I'm not a dumbass. I don't want to get raped or attacked. If you seriously think that it would be better for me to end up dead or raped because oh maigawdliek guns r bad!!!! omgscary!!!1, then good for you, I guess, but I'm not an idiot.

It's pretty safe in my entire city, and pretty much most places in Canada except for Jane & Finch in Toronto and Hastings & Main in Vancouver. I think the correlation is obvious.
You avoided my questions completely. I am talking about my city, not yours.
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Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2005, 08:33:11 PM »

you are an idiot if you choose to live in a place where you have to fear death at the hands of your fellow citizens when walking at night.
Give me money and I will move somewhere else.

Also, consider this - for all of Earl's feminist bitchery, he seems to completely disregard the increased potential for single, young women to get attacked whilst outside at night in a big city. Maybe you have nothing to fear, but I certainly do.

Stricter gun laws ensure this will happen less. It happens so rarely here that if a woman gets attacked and killed it makes national news.
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Platypus
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2005, 08:33:47 PM »

I would feel comfortable walking down any street in Melbourne. Any street. At 1am, alone, and unarmed. Now, it may be different if I was a female, I'll accept that; but I have little to no doubt that Melbourne is safer then any large American city. And the cost of living is lower too, so feel free to emigrate. Just don't bring any guns with you Wink
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Speed of Sound
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2005, 08:34:19 PM »

Shocked Shocked Shocked Whoa. not cool, man. Hopefully, this wont happen, because it would be a horrible happening.
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Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2005, 08:34:31 PM »


And damn proud Wink

I'd rather live under this "fascist" state  than live under the threat of being murdered by gangs and other vigalanties. I like my murder rate at once a month, thank you very much. 
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

I personally like the freedom of going anywhere I wish without the threat of being gangraped by a bunch of Libertarians. Guns take away more freedom than they give.
That's great to hear. Now try living where I live and see if you can say the same. If I lived in a cute, comfy safe zone, then I could say the same, but I don't, and you can't tell me that it's because guns are legal here. Just look at San Francisco's recent gun ban.

Tell me, if you were me and lived in the neighbourhood that I do, would you be dumb enough to think "la la la I can walk around wherever I want and nothing will happen"? I'm not a dumbass. I don't want to get raped or attacked. If you seriously think that it would be better for me to end up dead or raped because oh maigawdliek guns r bad!!!! omgscary!!!1, then good for you, I guess, but I'm not an idiot.

It's pretty safe in my entire city, and pretty much most places in Canada except for Jane & Finch in Toronto and Hastings & Main in Vancouver. I think the correlation is obvious.
You avoided my questions completely. I am talking about my city, not yours.

It's not my fault you live in a gun toting land of lawlessness. You're the "freedom" loving Libertarian. Enjoy your "freedom" while I enjoy my "fascism".
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