Moderate Labor Caucus?

[Vern]

I was wonder if there are any Labor members that would like to start a Moderate Caucus in the Labor Party? If so, we can come up with a name and platform. Just an idea, so tell me what you guys think.

[Goldwater]

Wait, you're a Laborite now?

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

The left split begins.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

[diptheriadan]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

[Dr. MB]

The left split begins.

divides in Labor aren’t really ideological

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

ACP formed on the basis of being "independent of the Feds" so that they can go as far right as they can. They are free to do that and that is their choice. If our interests happen to align, I am willing to work with them but I am not going to surrender our values, nor our platform which calls for an Atlasia that is open to all. The Federalist Party will not defend or excuse such a fundamental violation or our principles and thus I will not stand for the Feds being blamed for such.

As much as it pains me to say this having known PiT for 10 years and having been recruited by him, I categorically reject his pessimistic worldview.

If you want to reign in the excess on the far right, the only answer, and it is the same answer I told every single moderate about RL politics, is to join and fight for a viable and principled center right.

If you think about it, the constant stream of moderates out of the GOP into the Democrats has not halted the transformation of the GOP, it has accelerated it. For the love of god why repeat that mistake here?

[YE]

The left split begins.

divides in Labor aren’t really ideological

[Terry the Fat Shark]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

ACP formed on the basis of being "independent of the Feds" so that they can go as far right as they can. They are free to do that and that is their choice. If our interests happen to align, I am willing to work with them but I am not going to surrender our values, nor our platform which calls for an Atlasia that is open to all. The Federalist Party will not defend or excuse such a fundamental violation or our principles and thus I will not stand for the Feds being blamed for such.

As much as it pains me to say this having known PiT for 10 years and having been recruited by him, I categorically reject his pessimistic worldview.

If you want to reign in the excess on the far right, the only answer, and it is the same answer I told every single moderate about RL politics, is to join and fight for a viable and principled center right.

If you think about it, the constant stream of moderates out of the GOP into the Democrats has not halted the transformation of the GOP, it has accelerated it. For the love of god why repeat that mistake here?

Actually it was formed for the same reason as last time, to make the feds look less crazy and to keep the far right people at bay and allied with the feds. or as they said "to shift the overton window"

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

If the Feds and ACP were totally independent, they would run competing slates for the House instead of coordinating in hopes of electing a right-wing majority. Simple as that.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I am glad that Yankee and diptheriadan do not think women are property to be used as breeding stock, however. You have to take what you can get in times like these.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

ACP formed on the basis of being "independent of the Feds" so that they can go as far right as they can. They are free to do that and that is their choice. If our interests happen to align, I am willing to work with them but I am not going to surrender our values, nor our platform which calls for an Atlasia that is open to all. The Federalist Party will not defend or excuse such a fundamental violation or our principles and thus I will not stand for the Feds being blamed for such.

As much as it pains me to say this having known PiT for 10 years and having been recruited by him, I categorically reject his pessimistic worldview.

If you want to reign in the excess on the far right, the only answer, and it is the same answer I told every single moderate about RL politics, is to join and fight for a viable and principled center right.

If you think about it, the constant stream of moderates out of the GOP into the Democrats has not halted the transformation of the GOP, it has accelerated it. For the love of god why repeat that mistake here?

Actually it was formed for the same reason as last time, to make the feds look less crazy and to keep the far right people at bay and allied with the feds. or as they said "to shift the overton window"

If anything ACP has shifted the game to the left. They have pissed off all our moderates and driven some to join the other side. Furthermore, every time they say something extreme, Labor uses it to GOTV and recruit, which harms us too.

Last time, aside from Ben, there wasn't much extremism oozing from ACP. This time is a much different kettle of fish.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If the Feds and ACP were totally independent, they would run competing slates for the House instead of coordinating in hopes of electing a right-wing majority. Simple as that.

I am sure you guys would just love that too.

You see you know your strategy has failed when either way it works out Labor has the right by the balls. Not that I expect that reality to sway anybody.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

[YE]

If the Feds and ACP were totally independent, they would run competing slates for the House instead of coordinating in hopes of electing a right-wing majority. Simple as that.

I am sure you guys would just love that too.

You see you know your strategy has failed when either way it works out Labor has the right by the balls. Not that I expect that reality to sway anybody.

Here is where I'd point to a race where an ACP candidate won over a lefty one because the Feds backed an ACP candidate but we've been so dominant that such situation hasn't happened

TOO MUCH WINNING.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed. (And well you should!) Now the Federalists are in the same position of having to exorcise their demons if they wish to survive as a coherent force in national politics. In the mean time, I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment. Furthermore, I resent people making snide comments about how my party is full of cRaZy SoCiAlIsTs when we all know the Feds have been perfectly willing to prop up these elements, whatever illusions of "independence" may exist.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed.

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

...deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment...

As early as 1944, British writer George Orwell commented that following its widespread use in the European press "the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless" due to its non-specific use detached from its original political associations.

In the Soviet Union the epithets "fascist" and "fascism" were used to describe virtually any anti-Soviet activity or opinion, and often the Western world in general. This usage also spread to other Eastern bloc countries under Soviet domination, such as East Germany, where the Berlin Wall was known as the "Anti-Fascist Protection Wall." The term "anti-fascist" became ubiquitous in the Eastern bloc, where it became synonymous with the communist party line and denoted the struggle against dissenters and against the Western world.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment.

We haven't endorsed PiT in any elections since his Vice Presidency and at that time he was still pro-choice. Technically we didn't formally endorsed Fhtagn or Muaddib either, but even if we had Muaddib didn't say hardly anything in that chat except "Hi Doof" several times. You could make a case about Fhtagn her comments, which are problematic too, but the comments you mentioned specifically about women didn't come from her, they came from PiT.

Therefore to attribute his comments to us is completely unfair.

I have some big disagreements with Muaddib, like with the whole flag issue. But to his credit, his final action on the matter was an improvement of the original flag. He has been a great CoD Speaker and is one of the most active people in the game. If he had made the same comments as PiT I would not have endorsed him or voted for him.

As for Fhtagn, what coordination are you talking about? As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

[fhtagn]

As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

Just stopping by to confirm this.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

Okay? Labor did not repay that support in kind by helping to elect Radical candidates during that period. I distinctly remember conversations with Adam that December where we discussed plans to run GOTV for Clark Kent if y'all didn't have enough votes to elect him over Maxwell, and I personally campaigned for RFayette in October 2015 when we came within a couple of votes of electing him to the Senate that month (if only).

My problem is not that you're condemning these elements now while still presumably benefiting from hard-right votes. To use a real-life example, I'm sure Mitt Romney's popular vote total from 2012 included racists who opposed Barack Obama solely because he was black; but that does not make Mitt Romney a racist or somehow responsible for those people's racism. My problem is that the evils you identify in your announcement speech for chair have been festering for months, and while it is only now that we are seeing Federalist leaders denounce them, you want to be absolved from all culpability in their rise and are outraged anyone would suggest that, you know, the Federalists are partly to blame for cultism and extremism on the right. PiT's quote is just an example of a larger problem that everyone knew existed, but apparently few if any within the Feds were willing to oppose. I don't mean to target you personally, Yankee, because I know your opposition to these elements is more than opportunism. But to say that Federalists as a group cannot be blamed for the rise of cultism and the hard right when they actively abetted both over the last year is cutting yourselves some unearned slack, in my not-so-humble opinion.

And please, don't try to tell me the Feds and ACP have not been coordinating with re: the House since April. I'm not that dumb. It's incredibly obvious that electing fhtagn was part of the plan for getting a rightist majority in the House for the last several cycles, or y'all would have run five Federalist candidates instead of four. I may not be the brightest strategic mind out there, but I've been around long enough to know how slates are put together and what considerations go into a national election.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Oh right, I am totally going to run 5 candidates for house with all of those legions of interested ambitious feds who cannot wait to seek office. If you hadn't notice we had two House candidates who doubled up, and staying in the House race was not their preferred option. They did so because it was them or nobody.

I wish I lived in the universe you do, my life would be so much easier.

Fhtagn was going to be a candidate regardless of whether we ran five or four and she would have gotten 95% of the same votes regardless of what anyone else or who else did.

As for the 2015 period, don't give me that crap. Most of Labor voted to elect faux Federalist Talleyrand (without Labor leadership involvement I will give you that), they voted to elect Barnes as Mideast Senator (probably with Labor leadership involvement cannot be sure) when he had one foot in the radical door and one foot on his next resignation. And several Laborites voted for Maxwell  on the first day instead of abstaining or waiting, which made the difference. Snowguy and Marokai come to mind. And they voted for Oakvale over Rpryor for NE Senate.

I had several conversations with Adam as well, and things were bad over there. Laborites were perfectly willing to default to the radical candidates as noted several times above. In fact that situation was probably worse than what we have now by far.