Was the death of Hellenic and Norse paganism a bad thing?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It was both a good thing and a bad thing, depending on which aspect of those religions one is talking about.

[afleitch]

Hellenism didn't just die. It was destroyed. As was non superstitious Hellenic thought. How it was destroyed (and early and proto Christian sects too) is inherently a bad thing.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In what language is the New Testament written?

[Lechasseur]

Nope

[Mopsus]

Hellenism didn't just die. It was destroyed. As was non superstitious Hellenic thought. How it was destroyed (and early and proto Christian sects too) is inherently a bad thing.

Surely you mean "subsumed"?

[RFayette]

Nope

[LAKISYLVANIA]

I'm not sure, but I've always thought christianism was more stupid than paganism. It has both good and bad things, and i think i'm too uninformed to take a true stance on here.

I however think the death of zoroastrianism is a bad thing, and especially of the zoroastrian cult: mazdakism.

[afleitch]

Hellenism didn't just die. It was destroyed. As was non superstitious Hellenic thought. How it was destroyed (and early and proto Christian sects too) is inherently a bad thing.

Surely you mean "subsumed"?

Not completely. I'm talking about the literal destruction of pagan worship, temples and pagans themselves. From the Edict of Milan which tolerated Christian worship it took only 16 years before Constantine was ordering the destruction of pagan temples.

There were further edicts by Constantius II and persecution under Theodosius (including the first decree that homosexuality was illegal and they were to be burned alive) ending with the absolute prohibition of non-Christian public worship. With Marcian eventually confiscating their property and condemning them to death.

Christianisation was not a morally neutral act that was undertaken at this time. Or in later times. It could be coercive, destructive and persecutory.

[Mopsus]

Hellenism didn't just die. It was destroyed. As was non superstitious Hellenic thought. How it was destroyed (and early and proto Christian sects too) is inherently a bad thing.

Surely you mean "subsumed"?

Not completely. I'm talking about the literal destruction of pagan worship, temples and pagans themselves. From the Edict of Milan which tolerated Christian worship it took only 16 years before Constantine was ordering the destruction of pagan temples.

There were further edicts by Constantius II and persecution under Theodosius (including the first decree that homosexuality was illegal and they were to be burned alive) ending with the absolute prohibition of non-Christian public worship. With Marcian eventually confiscating their property and condemning them to death.

Christianisation was not a morally neutral act that was undertaken at this time. Or in later times. It could be coercive, destructive and persecutory.

I think a defining characteristic of historical Catholicism is that it posits an irrevocable link between belief and practice, so that it was the beliefs of Hellenistic pagans which caused them to make mortal enemies of the nascent Church, and it would be their beliefs which would cause them do so again if given the chance. Perhaps they just had too much faith in their opponents.

[HillGoose]

all religion is bad imo

[Georg Ebner]

Amazing: There are those (protestants aso.), who claim, that we Catholics are cryptoPagans; and then there are the GIBBONs and Nazis, who say the opposite...
Realiter Christianity fulfilled - no: overfilled - all Jewish and pagan dreams.

[Kingpoleon]

No, paganism inherently supports an old, ultra-traditionalist order. Paganism was orthodoxy and tradition for most of the world for five thousand years; they were “as orthodox as the devil - and as wicked.”

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=276022.msg6333756;topicseen#msg6333756

[PSOL]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in. I am of the opinion that the cultural tyranny of those who spread Christianity, at this point immensely expired from being a religion of reform, ruined things until Christianity started self-destructing and fragmenting with the Reformation and revolutions of the late 18^th century onward.

The level of cultural imperialism and feigned ignorance of what Christianity did to expand itself in Europe is unsurprising coming out of Evangelicals here, what's a downer is that a few people who should know better are agreeing with this notion and the falsehoods spread by the Abrahamics.

[RINO Tom]

I don't feel like arguing with people who have a clear pro-Christian or anti-Christian bias (my subjective opinion seems to be that anti-Pagan legislation was pretty, err, unbecoming, but that it's also pretty obvious that Christianity was an extremely positive and unifying force during the Dark Ages, so it's pretty complicated) ... but I have become extremely interested in this transitional period throughout the Roman Empire, and there is unfortunately little available on the subject.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society

the falsehoods spread by the Abrahamics.

Right, because Jews and Muslims have every reason in the world to whitewash the Christianization of Europe. Sure, PSOL.

[Kingpoleon]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in. I am of the opinion that the cultural tyranny of those who spread Christianity, at this point immensely expired from being a religion of reform, ruined things until Christianity started self-destructing and fragmenting with the Reformation and revolutions of the late 18^th century onward.

The level of cultural imperialism and feigned ignorance of what Christianity did to expand itself in Europe is unsurprising coming out of Evangelicals here, what's a downer is that a few people who should know better are agreeing with this notion and the falsehoods spread by the Abrahamics.

Hey! This is the largest number of people I’ve ever seen attacked as a group*. Good job!

*Roughly 3,650,000,000 people, for the record.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The trouble is, a lot of the old order was essentially codified superstitions that essentially blocked scientific development. Christianity, with its monotheistic deity and its clearer delineation between the physical and metaphysical worlds, is a lot easier to persist if you have a scientific mindset. Paganism, by contrast, falls apart very quickly with scientific inquiry: one realises after observation that it makes little difference how much one sacrifices to Poseidon, the storms continue regardless. The old Gods were persistent meddlers in human society (many of the Roman compilers of their exploits actually explicitly made it subtext that the Gods were bad eggs who deserved to be overthrown) who made it difficult to build a physical model of the Universe entirely governed by standard and measurable laws. It's no coincidence that the Scientific Revolution which also overturned Aristolean dogma also saw the collapse in the dregs of superstition (amongst the educated classes at least): witches, magic, astrology and so on.

Perhaps one could argue Christianity lost something of its radical nature in how it was co-opted by the Roman Empire and turned from a rebellious and egalitarian force for the disenfranchised into an institution of imperialism. But paganism was not long for the world. Be glad we still have the good stories without the inclination to follow the whims of Zeus, Hera, Athena and the whole gang.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in.

There are many things to praise about the classical world, but they were in fact heavily stratified societies, with giant slave populations, a caste system complete with aristocratic orders of patricians and (in ancient Rome) led by an Emperor who anointed himself as a divine figure with his own personal cult.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in.

There are many things to praise about the classical world, but they were in fact heavily stratified societies, with giant slave populations, a caste system complete with aristocratic orders of patricians and (in ancient Rome) led by an Emperor who anointed himself as a divine figure with his own personal cult.

Yes, they were incredibly stratified. Dissolution of the bulk of that was clearly a big part of the social appeal of Christianity, much as also appears to have been the case with its unusually positive stance towards women - a very big contrast with Classical norms, that.

[Georg Ebner]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in.

There are many things to praise about the classical world, but they were in fact heavily stratified societies, with giant slave populations, a caste system complete with aristocratic orders of patricians and (in ancient Rome) led by an Emperor who anointed himself as a divine figure with his own personal cult.

Yes, they were incredibly stratified. Dissolution of the bulk of that was clearly a big part of the social appeal of Christianity, much as also appears to have been the case with its unusually positive stance towards women - a very big contrast with Classical norms, that.

No, slavery was already in deep decline due to the vulgarStoical ethics so common in Rome. Neiher Christianity's position on slavery (Eph.6,5; Tit.2,9) nor on women (1.Cor.14,34; Col.3,18) was outstanding.

[PSOL]

Now I don't cry for the loss of religions old and new but the Christianization of Europe coincided with massive acts of brutality and destruction of livelihoods more fulfilling then the clout the Abrahamics with their vastly more stratified society brought in.

There are many things to praise about the classical world, but they were in fact heavily stratified societies, with giant slave populations, a caste system complete with aristocratic orders of patricians and (in ancient Rome) led by an Emperor who anointed himself as a divine figure with his own personal cult.

Ehh, maybe my post works best when referring to the Norse societies pre conversion.

[Kingpoleon]

Ehh, maybe my post works best when referring to the Norse societies pre conversion.

You don’t actually believe that paganism is remotely a force for good, do you?

Paganism typically has its roots in the belief that your people have a patron god, often the common ancestor of your race. That kind of implicit racial superiority is not good for the foundations of a society.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Ehh, maybe my post works best when referring to the Norse societies pre conversion.

You don’t actually believe that paganism is remotely a force for good, do you?

Paganism typically has its roots in the belief that your people have a patron god, often the common ancestor of your race. That kind of implicit racial superiority is not good for the foundations of a society.

     The idea that all people are fundamentally equal in the eyes of God was a radical innovation in its time. People living today struggle to appreciate how big of a deal the Parable of the Good Samaritan actually is. Folks who try to paint Christianity as a negative social influence are comparing the real historical Christian societies to a utopia that never was.