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  United Kingdom General Elections: December 12th, 2019 (search mode)
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Author Topic: United Kingdom General Elections: December 12th, 2019  (Read 70105 times)
brucejoel99
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E: -3.48, S: -3.30

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« on: October 30, 2019, 01:22:47 pm »

If there is a 2nd referendum and Remain wins 52-48 I wonder if the Remainers will say there should be another referendum on that because the vote was too close.

No Remainer has called for there to be another referendum on the basis that the last one was too close, & disingenuousness aside, I think you know that.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 01:30:16 pm »

If there is a 2nd referendum and Remain wins 52-48 I wonder if the Remainers will say there should be another referendum on that because the vote was too close.

No Remainer has called for there to be another referendum on the basis that the last one was too close, & disingenuousness aside, I think you know that.

If Remain wisn a 2nd referendum , Brexiters will have all the rights in the world to expect a third one.


In 2016 I was a Remainer(though not solidly just leaned towards it) , now I am a complete and total Brexiter  . So my rankings for the parties for this election would be


1. Tories
2. Brexit(In districts where they have a better chance of winning than the Tories)
3. Lib Dems
4. Labour

In no way whatsoever is any of what you just said a logical response to what I said.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 01:41:48 pm »

If there is a 2nd referendum and Remain wins 52-48 I wonder if the Remainers will say there should be another referendum on that because the vote was too close.

No Remainer has called for there to be another referendum on the basis that the last one was too close, & disingenuousness aside, I think you know that.

If Remain wisn a 2nd referendum , Brexiters will have all the rights in the world to expect a third one.


In 2016 I was a Remainer(though not solidly just leaned towards it) , now I am a complete and total Brexiter  . So my rankings for the parties for this election would be


1. Tories
2. Brexit(In districts where they have a better chance of winning than the Tories)
3. Lib Dems
4. Labour

In no way whatsoever is any of what you just said a logical response to what I said.


What I am saying is Remainers did everything in their power to make sure the people's will was not followed so if they succeed in forcing an winning a second referendum , the Brexiters will be 100% justified in doing the same to force a third referendum.

If this was the case, then a majority of the nearly 500 MP's who voted to trigger Article 50 wouldn't have done so.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 01:46:47 pm »

If there is a 2nd referendum and Remain wins 52-48 I wonder if the Remainers will say there should be another referendum on that because the vote was too close.

No Remainer has called for there to be another referendum on the basis that the last one was too close, & disingenuousness aside, I think you know that.

If Remain wisn a 2nd referendum , Brexiters will have all the rights in the world to expect a third one.


In 2016 I was a Remainer(though not solidly just leaned towards it) , now I am a complete and total Brexiter  . So my rankings for the parties for this election would be


1. Tories
2. Brexit(In districts where they have a better chance of winning than the Tories)
3. Lib Dems
4. Labour

In no way whatsoever is any of what you just said a logical response to what I said.


What I am saying is Remainers did everything in their power to make sure the people's will was not followed so if they succeed in forcing an winning a second referendum , the Brexiters will be 100% justified in doing the same to force a third referendum.

If this was the case, then a majority of the nearly 500 MP's who voted to trigger Article 50 wouldn't have done so.


They should have not obstructed May's deal, and obstructed her ability to make any good deal.

You do realize that it was literally BoJo & the arch-Brexiteers who did exactly that, right?
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brucejoel99
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,894
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2019, 01:04:32 pm »

If there is a 2nd referendum and Remain wins 52-48 I wonder if the Remainers will say there should be another referendum on that because the vote was too close.

No Remainer has called for there to be another referendum on the basis that the last one was too close, & disingenuousness aside, I think you know that.

If Remain wisn a 2nd referendum , Brexiters will have all the rights in the world to expect a third one.


In 2016 I was a Remainer(though not solidly just leaned towards it) , now I am a complete and total Brexiter  . So my rankings for the parties for this election would be


1. Tories
2. Brexit(In districts where they have a better chance of winning than the Tories)
3. Lib Dems
4. Labour

You know that Labour has maintained the position that they will follow the referendum result (albeit with a final deal put to the people) while Lib Dems have been full-on anti-Brexit, right?


I know but Jermey Corbyn cannot be PM under any circumstances.

jErEmY cOrByN cAnNoT bE pM uNdEr AnY cIrCuMsTaNcEs
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 04:07:17 pm »

Best way to have stopped Brexit would have been to vote Labour in 2015. That was the most important election of our times, everything else just follows the ghastly course it set. Oh well.

I did. I campaigned on the doorstep too, on a trip in Thurrock where the TV actor Shaun Dooley was one of the people bussed in to the marginal seat.

Labour came third. Then Ed Miliband decided to throw open the leadership ballot to every Johnny and Jenny come lately that could pony up a sum less than what I spent on my lunch today instead of limiting it to actual members.

So we got Corbyn. Who managed to make multiple unforced errors in week one. Since then Labour supporters have spent a huge amount of time moaning about media coverage and very little working out a viable way of dealing with it.

Then there's been antisemitism. I quit partly because it was taking longer than a murder case from arrest to conviction does to deal with Ken Livingstone and things have gotten worse since then.

A Conservative majority is a realistic possibility here and to be honest, a heavy loss might be what Labour needs to bring some sense back into its politics. I'd rather have five more years of Tory rule if it gets us ten of Labour after that than vice versa.

Not that I'm particularly a fan of Corbyn or anything, but that's kind of a non-sequitur, as "limiting [the 2015 leadership election] to actual members" wouldn't have changed anything; the result certainly would've been narrowed, of course, but Corbyn had already secured 49.5% of the members' vote on the 1st ballot alone, so had it been a members' only election, he would've just won it on the 2nd ballot instead of the 1st, & Labour would still be right where they are today.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 04:48:06 pm »

Best way to have stopped Brexit would have been to vote Labour in 2015. That was the most important election of our times, everything else just follows the ghastly course it set. Oh well.

I did. I campaigned on the doorstep too, on a trip in Thurrock where the TV actor Shaun Dooley was one of the people bussed in to the marginal seat.

Labour came third. Then Ed Miliband decided to throw open the leadership ballot to every Johnny and Jenny come lately that could pony up a sum less than what I spent on my lunch today instead of limiting it to actual members.

So we got Corbyn. Who managed to make multiple unforced errors in week one. Since then Labour supporters have spent a huge amount of time moaning about media coverage and very little working out a viable way of dealing with it.

Then there's been antisemitism. I quit partly because it was taking longer than a murder case from arrest to conviction does to deal with Ken Livingstone and things have gotten worse since then.

A Conservative majority is a realistic possibility here and to be honest, a heavy loss might be what Labour needs to bring some sense back into its politics. I'd rather have five more years of Tory rule if it gets us ten of Labour after that than vice versa.

Not that I'm particularly a fan of Corbyn or anything, but that's kind of a non-sequitur, as "limiting [the 2015 leadership election] to actual members" wouldn't have changed anything; the result certainly would've been narrowed, of course, but Corbyn had already secured 49.5% of the members' vote on the 1st ballot alone, so had it been a members' only election, he would've just won it on the 2nd ballot instead of the 1st, & Labour would still be right where they are today.

I think it is referencing that Labour had an absurdly low membership fee and lots of people joined to vote for Corbyn.

No, that would've been the registered 3 supporter category that Miliband introduced, which was separate from the membership.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2019, 02:54:43 pm »


After he had made a total tit of himself, mind. Though it is a mystery why the LibDems thought they should have a "high profile" candidate in this one anyway - they will probably replace him before the Thursday deadline but this time round it really will be a token.  

Sorry, how did Walker make a total tit of himself? Not doubting it or anything, it's just that I hadn't heard of any incidents regarding him having occurred.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 09:58:50 am »

This whole Canterbury thing is such a sorry affair for the Lib Dems and has the potential to be rather damaging all because of one idiot's ego.

Even if you buy the whole 'Vote Labour Get Remain' line (which I think we've established I don't), he must have known that this would create a serious debate within the party at a time more than any other when it needs to provide a united front. It also continues to perpetuate the idea that Labour can take control of the Remain vote which not only is ridiculous (accepting Jeremy Corbyn as Remain's great hope is accepting we have finally lost) but also is completely counter to what the Lib Dems actually need to be doing right now to win votes and seats - i.e getting remainers to vote for them. It also creates a lovely line for Tory leaflets: "The Lib Dems back Corbyn in Canterbury. How do you know they won't in Cheltenham/Winchester/Guildford/Brecon/St Ives/Cheadle/Hazel Grove/Westmoreland/Carshalton etc." And the worst thing is it won't even achieve what he wants! The national party will just impose another candidate who I doubt will get all that much less than he would have done. I can only conclude he is a rampant egotist who has decided his 20 minutes in the spotlight is more important than actually getting Remain MPs elected. This will hurt the party and the cause in the short, medium and long run.

Lol regardless of what you think of Corbyn on this issue & a potential "Lexit," you can't equate Rosie Duffield to Corbyn on this issue. She is a legitimate full-on Remainer, through & through.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 10:40:15 am »



What morons. Corbyn probably can't believe his luck. Not only is his conning people into thinking he'll support Remain working, he's actually getting help for it! And the Lib Dems wonder why they got plastered so badly in 2015.

Again, to equate Corbyn himself with Ruth George, the individual pro-Remain Labour MP in question, is disingenuously misguided.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 11:14:18 am »

Again, to equate Corbyn himself with Ruth George, the individual pro-Remain Labour MP in question, is disingenuously misguided.

When the time comes, Duffield, George and all the other Remainer Labour MPs will do what Corbyn tells them to or face instant deselection.

Wow, not only do you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to those named MPs in particular, let alone many of the other Remainer Labour MPs who also understand that the Remain movement is bigger than Labour, but that would be a fantastic way for Corbyn to lose valuable, super marginal seats, then.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 01:10:28 pm »

Wow, not only do you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to those named MPs in particular, let alone many of the other Remainer Labour MPs who also understand that the Remain movement is bigger than Labour

Single MPs don't have the room to be independent mavericks in these hyper-polarised, charged up times. We saw that in the last parliament when MPs with years of service to the Conservative Party, including Ken Clarke, a man who served as a Tory chancellor and was Father of the House, were unceremoniously booted for opposing the party line on Brexit. I'm happy to bet a similar occurrence will take place in a Corbyn-led government.

And I can tell you've never met a Corbynite if you think they prioritise Remain over Corbyn Worship

How do you not realize that your logic (single maverick MPs don't have the room to exist) is in & of itself negated by the very example you brought up? Nevertheless, you can bet on something all you want, but when it comes to expelling ideologically-opposed MPs from the parliamentary party, Corbyn hasn't done in more than 4 years what it took BoJo less than 2 months to do, so perhaps that's a tell that what you think is gonna happen isn't actually gonna happen.

Moreover, the MPs in question (especially Duffield) are far from Corbynites, but you wouldn't know that unless you took literally a second to examine who these individual MPs actually are.

but that would be a fantastic way for Corbyn to lose valuable, super marginal seats, then.

He's been doing nothing but supporting Brexit for years and his reward is about to be millions of remainers happily voting for him. I think it's a risk he'll take based on that.

--

My overall point was nothing to do with Corbyn anyway. It was that these Lib Dems are self-defeating idiots who have taken down the party's vote share by at least a few points and I'm surprised some are so dismissive of it. They've come out and said 'don't vote for us'. There's a massive difference between doing a non-existent campaign (which they easily could have done if they wanted these Corbyn Mouthpieces re-elected) and making a public display that their own party doesn't matter. If this is a message that gets repeated any further, its the end in any LD-Lab contests and is an easy print on every Tory leaflet in every Con-LD contest ("Vote Lib Dem Get Corbyn"). It's because of poor message discipline and that there's yet to be a strong rebuttal from the leadership speaks volumes. The downward trajectory of the party going into the campaign was probably inevitable but this event could well hasten and amplify the decline. Which leaves Remainers with Mr 7/10 as our spokesman.

Nuance is something that completely escapes you. I'm not surprised that you think this way, as all the reasoning you've exhibited in your comments here has been extraordinarily shallow. It's unfortunate that you approach such complex problems with this degree of myopia. It's especially unfortunate that you haven't learned in all your years of life that politics, like life itself, is a bit more complex than your simple reductionism.
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brucejoel99
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Posts: 4,894
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Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2019, 04:18:49 pm »

A lot them didn't switch to the Tories with Johnson - the Tory vote went up less than 400,000. Many of them just stayed at home.


A lot of people did switch their vote to the conservatives. Boris lost tory remainers but those were in strongly upper middle class tory held areas in the south but he gained a lot in working class pro-brexit constituencies and then you had pro-brexit remainers that hated the tories but didnt want to vote labour because of their support of a second referendum so they parked their votes for the Brexit party. and considering the curse of FPTP in anglosphere countries it was devasting enough.

Huh

Those who voted Remain but are accepting of Brexit?
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brucejoel99
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,894
United States


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

P
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 05:15:34 pm »



I love you John. You're a fking hero. Cry

Honestly, as someone who never liked the guy (even back when I liked Corbyn), massive respect. It takes real guts to apologize so thoroughly.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that McDonnell & Corbyn are trying to very publicly soak up as much of the blame as possible, so that when they leave front-bench politics, the party can start up again with a clean slate. And that's a very f**king admirable & mature strategy.
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