German court strikes down harshest sanctions against jobseekers on welfare
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  German court strikes down harshest sanctions against jobseekers on welfare
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President Johnson
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« on: November 05, 2019, 02:35:46 PM »

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Hartz IV: German court slaps down harshest sanctions against jobseekers

Germany's top court ruled Tuesday that sanctioning jobseekers deemed uncooperative in the search for work was illegal in some cases, in a blow to the controversial unemployment reforms rammed through by Gerhard Schröder's government in 2005.

Judges at the Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe said that the total cut in benefits should never be allowed to exceed 30 percent, and in cases where lower payments would cause "extraordinary hardship", no penalties should be imposed at all.

 The sanctions allowed under Germany's so-called Hartz IV benefits system, which combines social welfare and long-term unemployment payments, have long been controversial with critics saying they violate the right to a dignified existence.

Under the current rules, a jobseeker's monthly dole can be docked if they fail to turn up for a job interview, turn down employment or miss training opportunities.

In extreme cases, recipients can lose up to 60 percent of their benefits -- and repeat offenders can be cut off altogether for three months.

But judges in Karlsruhe found that the 60-percent reduction was "unreasonable given that the burden it entails seriously encroaches upon the minimum standard of living guaranteed by fundamental rights."

Furthermore, judges said that a 30-percent dole cut was "only permissible if the sanction can be waived in cases of extreme hardship" and if its three-month duration can be shortened depending on the jobseeker's cooperation.

[...]

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I have mixed feelings on the ruling. Generally, I support sanctions for jobseekers who live on welfare rolls but either refuse to take a work or are unwilling to participate in (useful) training programs. Some politicians, including many SPD members, would like to get rid of all sanctions, which I think would be a hit in the face of those who get up every morning and go to work.
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dead0man
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 03:07:28 PM »

I kept waiting for there to be a "oh, well yeah, that's messed up" moment while reading, and it never happened.  These people just want free money with NO responsibilities on them, and that don't flow with me.  Are they so lazy they can't accept the jobs and then get fired for incompetence before lunch?  Leaving the house for reasons that are not their own once every 5 months is just too much for these leaches?
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President Johnson
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 03:14:39 PM »

I kept waiting for there to be a "oh, well yeah, that's messed up" moment while reading, and it never happened.  These people just want free money with NO responsibilities on them, and that don't flow with me.  Are they so lazy they can't accept the jobs and then get fired for incompetence before lunch?  Leaving the house for reasons that are not their own once every 5 months is just too much for these leaches?

Some for sure, yes, though studies also have shown most jobseekers are indeed engaged. The media attention is just more on the smaller group who's indeed unwilling to contribute. A major problem of the system is the bureaucracy and a lot of inefficient job training programs. Often they are used to clean the statistics, because every jobseeker in such a program is no longer officially unemployed.
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Pick Up the Phone
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2019, 03:23:27 PM »

I consider this a fundamentally good thing and the ruling is, in fact, quite moderate (the court could easily have struck down any kind of sanction mechanism).

It's also stupid to ruin entire lives for no reason other than to symbolically protect this country's strange labor fetish. I assume that the vast majority of jobseekers would like to work again and the small minority that doesn't... well, I don't see how it makes sense to force them to apply for jobs they don't want. In the end, they either end up dissatisifed (and try to get out as soon as possible) or they make sure that they won't get the job in the first place. Institutional resources could be used much more efficiently.

Apart form that, Hartz IV is already low enough. I can understand that the court sees any cut exceeding 30 percent as incompatible with the principle of human dignity enshrined in Germany's constitution. It's just a shame that it took 14 years to come to this conclusion.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2019, 03:28:51 PM »

Big problem with this sort of thing, aside from the, you know, human dignity argument is also that forcing people to take the first job that comes up fundamentally re-weights the game in favour of the employer. As the employer knows they can basically set whatever terms and the job seeker has no choice. In the long run, evreybody pays the price because that just leads to a downward spiral in terms of wages and working conditions.
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Pick Up the Phone
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2019, 03:42:10 PM »
« Edited: November 05, 2019, 03:59:03 PM by Pick Up the Phone »

Big problem with this sort of thing, aside from the, you know, human dignity argument is also that forcing people to take the first job that comes up fundamentally re-weights the game in favour of the employer. As the employer knows they can basically set whatever terms and the job seeker has no choice. In the long run, evreybody pays the price because that just leads to a downward spiral in terms of wages and working conditions.

Exactly. And this is just one of several negative side effects. On the other hand, there are employers who have to deal with countless applications from people who absolutely dislike the job offered; they just apply not to get their jobseeker benefits cut. If these people are hired, they either "get ill" after a few weeks or they do their work grudgingly, sloppily, and without any sort of actual commitment. The smart thing would be to forget about how to punish them and rather dedicate more attention to those who want to work (by getting rid of ridiculously outdated "trainings" for instance).
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2019, 05:58:58 PM »

This Ned Flanders quote but unironically. Freedom Ruling.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2019, 01:28:01 AM »

Kind of odd for a constitutional challenge to come up 14 years after the fact. You'd think a similar case would have surfaced earlier.

Still, wonderful news. The Hartz reforms were a sick abomination and should be dismantled from the ground up.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2019, 04:17:25 AM »

I kept waiting for there to be a "oh, well yeah, that's messed up" moment while reading, and it never happened.  These people just want free money with NO responsibilities on them, and that don't flow with me.  Are they so lazy they can't accept the jobs and then get fired for incompetence before lunch?  Leaving the house for reasons that are not their own once every 5 months is just too much for these leaches?

A friend of mine who's been on unemployment benefits for a couple of years now due to the chronic depressions he's suffering from was actually very happy about yesterday's ruling.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2019, 01:10:05 PM »

Meanwhile the Austrian Labor Market Agency is cutting and suspending payments like never before for people who turn down job offers repeatedly or who deliberately sabotage employment/training measures provided for them:

https://orf.at/stories/3143339/
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2019, 08:51:34 AM »

A friend of mine who's been on unemployment benefits for a couple of years now due to the chronic depressions he's suffering from was actually very happy about yesterday's ruling.
Many people with depression work (at least in my family). Pardon me for seeming insensitive, but how bad is his depression that he truly cannot work? I don’t mind the state paying for therapy and medicine for even a decade, but if someone does not attempt to seek work at any point thereof, surely then someone needs to intervene and say, “Hey, let me help you get a job.” No?
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2019, 10:12:00 AM »
« Edited: November 10, 2019, 01:09:30 PM by Ye Olde Europe »

A friend of mine who's been on unemployment benefits for a couple of years now due to the chronic depressions he's suffering from was actually very happy about yesterday's ruling.
Many people with depression work (at least in my family). Pardon me for seeming insensitive, but how bad is his depression that he truly cannot work? I don’t mind the state paying for therapy and medicine for even a decade, but if someone does not attempt to seek work at any point thereof, surely then someone needs to intervene and say, “Hey, let me help you get a job.” No?

In my opinion, the content of your post hasn't much to do with the actual reality we're living in. Instead it appears as if you try to force a certain ideology onto reality irrespective of whether this makes much sense or not.

At no point did I indicate that my friend never tried to find or hold a job. The sequence of events in the seven years or so I've known him was more like this:
- Unemployed when I first met him.
- Working full time for a year or so, until he quit because he felt this job actually increased his depression and anxiety.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Working part time for a year, until he quit because he felt his job still increased his problems.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in a clinic for a while.
- Asked the employment office to pay for a re-training in a sector he felt to be a lot less stressful. Request for re-training denied, instead he was suppossed to find another job in the same sector he worked before.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in another clinic for a while.
- Filed a lawsuit against the employment office.

The ideology of "someone must eventually hold a job no matter whether one suffers from a psychiatric condition and no matter whether the last jobs worsened the effects of that condition" is nonsensiscal and destroys people's lifes.

I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I was always holding a job in the past decade or so, even though I'm certainly suffering from similar problems as my friend. What makes me different? I'd say that my depressions and my anxiety is balanced out by obsessive compulsive behavior and a severe fear of failure, forcing me to continue working even when this leads to a worsening of the condition in my case as well. Sometimes I think that in the long run it would be better for my own health to just quit too.

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Hnv1
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 10:15:51 AM »

terrible ruling, especially with young voters who do  all in germany, attending Uni for years getting rubbish diplomas in political science.

worst thing as the human dignity nonsense means the Israeli SC will be next
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lfromnj
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2019, 12:15:14 PM »
« Edited: November 10, 2019, 03:03:01 PM by Deluded retread Vice Chair LFROMNJ »

I dont get why communists are happy here when non workers are stealing the labor of workers.
What gives unemployed people the right to the labor of employed people?
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 01:27:28 PM »

A friend of mine who's been on unemployment benefits for a couple of years now due to the chronic depressions he's suffering from was actually very happy about yesterday's ruling.
Many people with depression work (at least in my family). Pardon me for seeming insensitive, but how bad is his depression that he truly cannot work? I don’t mind the state paying for therapy and medicine for even a decade, but if someone does not attempt to seek work at any point thereof, surely then someone needs to intervene and say, “Hey, let me help you get a job.” No?

In my opinion, the content of your post hasn't much to do with the actual reality we're living in. Instead it appears as if you try to force a certain ideology onto reality irrespective of whether this makes much sense or not.

At no point did I indicate that my friend never tried to find or hold a job. The sequence of events in the seven years or so I've known him was more like this:
- Unemployed when I first met him.
- Working full time for a year or so, until he quit because he felt this job actually increased his depression and anxiety.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Working part time for a year, until he quit because he felt his job still increased his problems.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in a clinic for a while.
- Asked the employment office to pay for a re-training in a sector he felt to be a lot less stressful. Request for re-training denied, instead he was suppossed to find another job in the same sector he worked before.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in another clinic for a while.
- Filed a lawsuit against the employment office.

The ideology of "someone must eventually hold a job no matter whether one suffers from a psychiatric condition and no matter whether the last jobs worsened the effects of that condition" is nonsensiscal and destroys people's lifes.

I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I was always holding a job in the past decade or so, even though I'm certainly suffering from similar problems as my friend. What makes me different? I'd say that my depressions and my anxiety is balanced out by obsessive compulsive behavior and a severe fear of failure, forcing me to continue working even when this leads to a worsening of the condition in my case as well. Sometimes I think that in the long run it would be better for my own health to just quit too.



I'd like to add to my earlier remarks that in the support group I once were we had a total of three suicides within four years.

With that in mind, telling them to "go find a job" is more of a mockery rather than an actual solution. One of the suicides temporarily held a job as a computer progammer at the Bayer AG, but ultimately she couldn't cut it due to her mental issues, then she was on unemployment benefits for a couple of years, then she was in a clinic too and then she threw herself off a high-rise building.
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Omega21
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 05:53:07 PM »

A friend of mine who's been on unemployment benefits for a couple of years now due to the chronic depressions he's suffering from was actually very happy about yesterday's ruling.
Many people with depression work (at least in my family). Pardon me for seeming insensitive, but how bad is his depression that he truly cannot work? I don’t mind the state paying for therapy and medicine for even a decade, but if someone does not attempt to seek work at any point thereof, surely then someone needs to intervene and say, “Hey, let me help you get a job.” No?

In my opinion, the content of your post hasn't much to do with the actual reality we're living in. Instead it appears as if you try to force a certain ideology onto reality irrespective of whether this makes much sense or not.

At no point did I indicate that my friend never tried to find or hold a job. The sequence of events in the seven years or so I've known him was more like this:
- Unemployed when I first met him.
- Working full time for a year or so, until he quit because he felt this job actually increased his depression and anxiety.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Working part time for a year, until he quit because he felt his job still increased his problems.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in a clinic for a while.
- Asked the employment office to pay for a re-training in a sector he felt to be a lot less stressful. Request for re-training denied, instead he was suppossed to find another job in the same sector he worked before.
- Unemployed for a while.
- Stayed in another clinic for a while.
- Filed a lawsuit against the employment office.

The ideology of "someone must eventually hold a job no matter whether one suffers from a psychiatric condition and no matter whether the last jobs worsened the effects of that condition" is nonsensiscal and destroys people's lifes.

I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I was always holding a job in the past decade or so, even though I'm certainly suffering from similar problems as my friend. What makes me different? I'd say that my depressions and my anxiety is balanced out by obsessive compulsive behavior and a severe fear of failure, forcing me to continue working even when this leads to a worsening of the condition in my case as well. Sometimes I think that in the long run it would be better for my own health to just quit too.



I'd like to add to my earlier remarks that in the support group I once were we had a total of three suicides within four years.

With that in mind, telling them to "go find a job" is more of a mockery rather than an actual solution. One of the suicides temporarily held a job as a computer progammer at the Bayer AG, but ultimately she couldn't cut it due to her mental issues, then she was on unemployment benefits for a couple of years, then she was in a clinic too and then she threw herself off a high-rise building.

Mental disorders/issues are certainly a thing, and some people not being able to hold a job is understandable.

I am more concerned about those who take advantage of the system here. Austria has a generous benefits programme, and many immigrants are taking advantage of it.

Being a new 3rd Country/non-EU immigrant myself, I am no disillusioned native simply pushing the blame onto newcomers.

I hope you'll manage to overcome the issues you are having, or at least keep them under control as best as possible. I've heard exercise/sport can be of help sometimes, but you already probably know more about such things.
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Nathan
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 10:36:16 PM »

I dont get why communists are happy here when non workers are stealing the labor of workers.
What gives unemployed people the right to the labor of employed people?

I can't speak for other leftists in this thread, but I see socialist policy goals through the lens of vindicating a universal individual right to social support, not through the more traditional Marxist lens of vindicating the collective property rights of the industrial proletariat.
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