Is the British Labour Party anti-Semitic?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Just a question to those who have queried my post above - so what do you think a Corbyn-led government would actually *do* to harm Jewish people if it was in power?

This is a fairly important thing regarding any supposed AS tendencies, but never seems to get a proper answer.

How would we know?

There's scenarios where it's limited to harassing "Zionists" out of public service and continuing their ongoing process of sweeping antisemitic harassment and abuse under the rug.

There's also scenarios where, holding the wheels of power, things move very fast and very bloody with no chance for British Jewry to escape.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to not find out?

No such "scenarios" exist, save in the minds of those who are utterly and terminally deranged.

The main thing that may *actually* happen is that those lobbying for Israel might not get as favourable treatment.

Of course, even this will be intolerable AS to some.

Thank goodness Atlas has you to goysplain anti-Semitism to the forum’s Jewish posters   Perhaps now you can enlighten us as to how you find the time to build straw men when you’re already so busy moving goal posts.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Is it "goysplaining" to say that Corbyn isn't going to literally start a Final Solution? I'm critical of the man and the party on the issue, but I really think that's hyperbole. For another comparison, it's pretty clear that the conservative party is Islamophobic, but only the most deranged Tory hater believes Boris and co are going to start a mass pogrom. Like, not to want to go down the "actually we found a Jew who thinks it's OK so I can say k***" dumb, but I highly doubt people like Ed Miliband and Alex Sobel would be keeping the whip if they believed that. (I know of the idea of the self-hating Jew, but I would feel weird as a Gentile labeling any Jew as self-hating)

It's clear to me that there is an anti-Semitic problem in Labour, which isn't to say that the majority of Labour's members are anti-semitic, but that leadership has ignored the issue for too long especially because the current leadership spent years associating themselves with factions of the far-left that are certainly anti-Semitic (e.g. they use "Zionist" as a perjorative, are obsessed with the supposed "control" that Israel and/or Mossad have over Western governments, indulge in the most crass insinuations about Jews in relations to banking and so on). I don't think this is unique to Labour - and if the party was to start griping about unfairness, they wouldn't be totally unreasonable to point at similar examples in the Lib Dems, Tories and Greens, but a party that defines itself as anti-racist must be especially vigilant in ridding itself of the taint.

I'm pretty sure you're posting in good faith, so a few things:

1) I haven't seen anyone say that Corbyn is going to literally going start another final solution (that was not how I interpreted Ray's post) and I certainly haven't said anything to that effect.  Nor would I because obviously Corbyn isn't going to start some sort of second Holocaust.  

2) There is middle ground between "Jeremy Corbyn is not an anti-Semite" and "Jeremy Corbyn is literally the next Hitler."  

3) That said, it's hardly unreasonable to suggest that at the more extreme end of possible scenarios is one where Corbyn gives the appearance of tacit approval of violent anti-Semitism more or less the way Trump did of violent racism when he tried to "both sides" Charlottesville.  That isn't the most likely outcome imo, but it wouldn't exactly be way off-brand for Corbyn either.

4) On a related note - and this next part isn't directed at you, so much as it is an expression of general frustration with certain maroon-avatars - it's really starting to get on my nerves how certain folks on Atlas seem to feel every Jewish poster owes them an explanation for any dumb thing they heard another Jewish persons say on Twitter once.  We're not a frigging hive mind and not all Jewish people feel the exact same way about every issue.

Go on then, you explain to me how a few people s***posting on Twitter is going to lead to a new Kristallnacht.

If s***posting could cause a new Kristallnacht, then it'd have already happened the day you created your account.  See, I can give dumb, bad-faith responses too

Just a question to those who have queried my post above - so what do you think a Corbyn-led government would actually *do* to harm Jewish people if it was in power?

This is a fairly important thing regarding any supposed AS tendencies, but never seems to get a proper answer.

How would we know?

There's scenarios where it's limited to harassing "Zionists" out of public service and continuing their ongoing process of sweeping antisemitic harassment and abuse under the rug.

There's also scenarios where, holding the wheels of power, things move very fast and very bloody with no chance for British Jewry to escape.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to not find out?

No such "scenarios" exist, save in the minds of those who are utterly and terminally deranged.

The main thing that may *actually* happen is that those lobbying for Israel might not get as favourable treatment.

Of course, even this will be intolerable AS to some.

Thank goodness Atlas has you to goysplain anti-Semitism to the forum’s Jewish posters  Perhaps now you can enlighten us as to how you find the time to build straw men when you’re already so busy moving goal posts.

Buddy, Coryn is not going to start a second Final Solution. Get over yourself.

Speaking of getting over things, have you gotten over the fact that no one else on Atlas liked season eight of Game of Thrones or do you still think RINO Tom/GrassRoots/whichever R-IL it was you blew up at earlier this year is leading a forum conspiracy against you?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Just a question to those who have queried my post above - so what do you think a Corbyn-led government would actually *do* to harm Jewish people if it was in power?

This is a fairly important thing regarding any supposed AS tendencies, but never seems to get a proper answer.

How would we know?

There's scenarios where it's limited to harassing "Zionists" out of public service and continuing their ongoing process of sweeping antisemitic harassment and abuse under the rug.

There's also scenarios where, holding the wheels of power, things move very fast and very bloody with no chance for British Jewry to escape.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to not find out?

No such "scenarios" exist, save in the minds of those who are utterly and terminally deranged.

The main thing that may *actually* happen is that those lobbying for Israel might not get as favourable treatment.

Of course, even this will be intolerable AS to some.

Thank goodness Atlas has you to goysplain anti-Semitism to the forum’s Jewish posters  Perhaps now you can enlighten us as to how you find the time to build straw men when you’re already so busy moving goal posts.

Buddy, Coryn is not going to start a second Final Solution. Get over yourself.

Speaking of getting over things, have you gotten over the fact that no one else on Atlas liked season eight of Game of Thrones or do you still think RINO Tom/GrassRoots/whichever R-IL it was you blew up at earlier this year is leading a forum conspiracy against you?

Buddy, if you need to bring up things that happened months ago about something not even related to the subject of discussion, then I'm not sure you have much of an argument.

*snip*

Read my reply to Crabcake if you want a serious response.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

the British irony thing was the most repulsive thing he's said though tbh.

How about when he called a convicted terrorist who received seven life sentences for organizing a Hamas suicide bombing that killed seven people his “brother” on Iranian State TV.  Corbyn also implied that said terrorist should never have been imprisoned in the first place given what he was accused of (“you have to ask the question why they [Palestinians arrested for terrorism] were in prison in the first place.”).  That was much worse imo.  

Then there was the time he repeatedly compared Israel to the Nazis at an event called “Never Again — For Anyone: From Auschwitz to Gaza.”  

I hadn’t even heard of the British irony comment before, but I’d file that one under “dumb, but harmless.”  It’s certainly not the worst thing Corbyn has done by any stretch of the imagination.  I don’t know that I’d even call it anti-Semitic per-se, just...well...dumb.

the British irony thing was the most repulsive thing he's said though tbh.

But that's the point in a way, granted it was somewhat crass and tasteless - but compared to what Farage said, or indeed the far from unknown Tory conspiracy theorising about Soros?

Farage is probably worse, but that’s kind of a low bar.  “It could be worse, at least he’s not as anti-Semitic as the guy who bragged about getting 1/3 of the BNP vote” isn’t exactly going to put anyone’s mind at ease.  Plus, Corbyn is infinitely more powerful than some random UKIP grifter and thus, people are going to worry more about his views.  I guarantee people would be a lot more worried about Farage if he were leading one of England’s two largest political parties.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

the British irony thing was the most repulsive thing he's said though tbh.

But that's the point in a way, granted it was somewhat crass and tasteless - but compared to what Farage said, or indeed the far from unknown Tory conspiracy theorising about Soros?

I think most of the people raising these questions though don't support Farange or the Tories...

I think the hyperbole about how Corbyn would being about new concentration camps is pretty absurd but there's a lot of red flags that aren't being addressed well....see that image posted by me on the first page. Does posting images like that from a white supremacist website only fall under "criticism of Israel"?

Again, no one has said or implied Corbyn would do that.  It’s just a strawman Horus and certain maroon avatars are whipping out in an attempt to discredit legitimate concerns about Corbyn’s anti-Semitism.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

the British irony thing was the most repulsive thing he's said though tbh.

But that's the point in a way, granted it was somewhat crass and tasteless - but compared to what Farage said, or indeed the far from unknown Tory conspiracy theorising about Soros?

I think most of the people raising these questions though don't support Farange or the Tories...

I think the hyperbole about how Corbyn would being about new concentration camps is pretty absurd but there's a lot of red flags that aren't being addressed well....see that image posted by me on the first page. Does posting images like that from a white supremacist website only fall under "criticism of Israel"?

Again, no one has said or implied Corbyn would do that.  It’s just a strawman Horus and certain maroon avatars are whipping out in an attempt to discredit legitimate concerns about Corbyn’s anti-Semitism.

I've seen posts here talking about "the likely refugee crisis" of Jews fleeing the UK if he became PM so no it's not a strawman. But handwaving or simply ignoring all the issues with him is absurd too.

Fair, I haven’t noticed those posts myself, but I believe you.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Go on then, you explain to me how a few people s***posting on Twitter is going to lead to a new Kristallnacht.

I’m waiting with a bag of popcorn in hand. This should be good.

It's not "A few people s***posting on Twitter".

It's a loyal cult engaging in mass campaigns of antisemitic harassment, and the party and law enforcement brass under their control working to sweep it under the rug.

That's what they do when they're out of power. Why am I supposed to give them any benefit of the doubt about what they'd do when they have power?

See, this is what I'm talking about. Those descriptions of the Labour Party and the leadership ('a loyal cult', 'mass campaigns', 'sweep under the rug') are exaggerations at best, histrionic hyperbole at worst. It also doesn't help bolster credibility when they come from an avatar titled 'Corbyn is a Strasserist'.

People concerned about institutionalized bigotry should be worried when it gains mainstream salience and access to the levers of power. But if opposing such bigotry is really one's priority, and one does not differentiate between different kinds of bigotry, the Tories, UKIP, the Brexit Party, and the Lib Dems (when Farron was in charge) ought to incur the same level of denunciation as Labour has.

The Brexit Party/UKIP are constantly (and rightly) raked over the coals for bigotry/racism in their ranks. The Tories also receive criticism for Islamophobia, which undoubtedly exists in their party, though as has been brought up previously nobody in the party has stooped anywhere near to Corbyn's rock bottom level of laying wreaths for terrorists.

As for Farron, that was truly a shameful media smear, contrary to media narrative he actually has had a pretty strong voting record on LGBT rights during his tenure in parliament. We live in a free society and people are totally allowed to personally believe something is wrong so long as they don't try to use their own beliefs to infringe on the human rights of others. Farron's Christian beliefs are in no way comparable to in Labour's 'issues' with Antisemitism.

At the risk of relitigating this entire matter, Corbyn's wreath laying is a far better example of a 'shameful media smear' than Farron's beliefs about queer people. Farron's record on LGBT issues in parliament was decidedly mixed (voted against bans on LGBT discrimination in public services, abstained on equal marriage), and he was evasive about his own views about gay people during the 2017 campaign. Granted, he subsequently 'clarified' that he was pro-LGBT (specifically, that he didn't think gay sex was a sin), but a year later he turned around and said he regretted saying that. LGBT people had every reason to think Farron was a fairweather friend and a hypocrite.

Corbyn's wreath laying controversy, on the other hand, was a clear example of deliberate (or unthinking, at any rate) misdirection. Corbyn, along with a Tory and Lib Dem Lord, attended a conference on Palestinian rights in Tunisia. Part of the conference involved a wreath laying ceremony commemorating the deaths of PLO members during a 1985 Israeli attack; Corbyn attended this. After the ceremony, delegates moved on to a cemetery where the victims of the bombing were buried. Also buried in that cemetery were people suspected of being involved in the 1972 Munich bombing. The controversy stems from deliberately conflating the wreath laying ceremony with the visit to the cemetery, and the coincidence of who was buried there. (See this BBC explainer for details)

For the record, I see how this would still look a bit hinky for someone who doesn't want to give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt. But it's an inaccurate smear to state Corbyn laid wreaths for terrorists.

More to the point, Corbyn's been quite consistent about his beliefs: about religious toleration, seeking peace in Israel/Palestine through creating dialogue, and denouncing anti-Semitism. Unlike Farron he's never turned around and recanted them.

So does this mean you’re going to explain to me how the incidents described below weren’t anti-Semitic?  Because I’ve yet to see any of Corbyn’s defenders in this thread respond to or even acknowledge them.  I don’t wanna assume anything, but it certainly comes off as folks ignoring the worst instances of Corbyn’s anti-Semitism and instead cherry-picking incidents that are a bit easier to defend.

the British irony thing was the most repulsive thing he's said though tbh.

How about when he called a convicted terrorist who received seven life sentences for organizing a Hamas suicide bombing that killed seven people his “brother” on Iranian State TV.  Corbyn also implied that said terrorist should never have been imprisoned in the first place given what he was accused of (“you have to ask the question why they [Palestinians arrested for terrorism] were in prison in the first place.”).  That was much worse imo.  

Then there was the time he repeatedly compared Israel to the Nazis at an event called “Never Again — For Anyone: From Auschwitz to Gaza.”  

I hadn’t even heard of the British irony comment before, but I’d file that one under “dumb, but harmless.”  It’s certainly not the worst thing Corbyn has done by any stretch of the imagination.  I don’t know that I’d even call it anti-Semitic per-se, just...well...dumb.

I get that a lot of maroon avatars like Corbyn, but can’t we just call a spade a spade and acknowledge that he’s an anti-Semite?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Respectfully, this is not the first thread about this topic on this forum. If you'd like to acquaint yourself with what has been debated in previous threads where the accusations you raised were discussed, you're more than welcome to do so.

Corbyn's in the unenviable position of having lost the benefit of the doubt among most of the people heavily invested in these issues. Just today he gave an interview where he called anti-Semitism "a poison and an evil in our society" and enumerated the steps he's taken since becoming Labour leader to address it. This will change precisely no one's mind about Corbyn, of course, and I struggle to imagine what words or actions he could deploy that would. People's nerves are too exposed and the debate is too visceral for any meaningful dialogue to occur.

I wish Corbyn had been swifter to slap down anti-Semitic outbursts among Labour Party members over the past few years, and he's definitely made some regrettable choices in phrasing/post sharing. But he doesn't seem any more an anti-Semite to me than Boris Johnson seems a racist or Tim Farron a homophobe. That's to say, bigotry of one form or another is endemic in British society; no one is going to be completely free of it, and almost everyone expresses a mild form of it from time to time (can't count the number of witless jokes I've heard British people tell about French/German/Spanish people over the years)

If Corbyn holds anti-Semitic views, he seems, from my view, willing to acknowledge they are something to atone for, not defend, and something he cannot expect to base policy around if/when in a position of power. For me that's enough to relent on the denunciation for now. For someone who, for ideological or sincerely felt emotional reasons, doesn't trust Corbyn, that's probably not enough. But then, probably nothing ever will be.

Thank you, for the thoughtful response.  I don’t agree with all of what you said, but I have a better sense now of where you’re coming from and can at least acknowledge it as a legitimate position.  As to what would be enough, I’d like to see some sort of genuine apology for his past comments and a real effort to address anti-Semitism within the British Labor Party for a few years, I’d certainly be willing to give him another chance, but sometimes forgiveness has to be earned, you know?