should the whole Russia thing have been avoided?

[freepcrusher]

if so, this whole Ukraine thing would seem more believable and we might be able to sink Trump and force him to resign. Now you have blowhards like Hannity saying how this is "Russia 2.0" and what not.

[Beet]

Since when did something "seeming believable" matter to these people? They will circle the wagons no matter what... the more unbelievable their position, the harder they circle.

[freepcrusher]

the thing is if something reeks of good faith and is not seen as a partisan smear. If Schumer could convince all the democrats to pretend to support Kavanaugh (don't forget Fat Tony was confirmed unanimously) and to then drop the Ford info the day before the vote - you might make it seem more believable.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I know that understanding this has never really been within your capabilities, freepcrusher, but there are people in this world who pursue avenues that they think ought--morally, ethically--to be pursued, not just avenues that put them at an advantage in three-dimensional chess games of their own devising.

[T'Chenka]

I know that understanding this has never really been within your capabilities, freepcrusher, but there are people in this world who pursue avenues that they think ought--morally, ethically--to be pursued, not just avenues that put them at an advantage in three-dimensional chess games of their own devising.

[Joe Republic]

No, the Democratic House should have pursued Robert Mueller's tacit instructions to pursue impeachment investigations long before the Ukraine thing even came up.  You're supposed to stop criminals from committing more crimes.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Obviously. It's hard to take establishment Democrats seriously.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Obviously. It's hard to take establishment Democrats seriously.

Thank God for Republicans, Sandernistas will always have their back on Russia.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The whole "the Russia thing" should have obliterated Donald Trump's chances at getting a public office to abuse in the first place. Obama should have ignored #MoscowMitch's obstruction and presented the case for the public to judge Mr. Trump's shady past, dubious associates, and status as Putin's preferred candidate. Likewise, the still-complicit media should have made clear that Mr. Trump was not only a deplorable bigot, but also that he was a fraudster and long-time enabler of Russian money-laundering.

[Nyvin]

Democrats didn't control the "Russia Thing".    They didn't have majorities in either chamber of Congress and nearly everyone in the FBI is a registered Republican,  including Mueller. 

There's really nothing they could do to prevent the "Russia Thing" from happening.

[Beefalow and the Consumer]

Democrats should have maintained the line that the Mueller investigation has nothing to do with Trump, and its primary aim was to uncover the details of foreign meddling in our elections. However, the pressure from their base to impeach Trump was overwhelming, and the specter of his impending impeachment was key to the Democrats taking the House in 2018.

For something like 40% of the voting population, Donald Trump always deserved to be impeached, and it was only a matter of time before Trump presented us with a smoking gun. The difficultly is getting independents and Republican skeptics of Trump on board, and Democrats' credibility is vital to that end.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Incredibly bad thread and bad premise.

If your real concern is that "Russiagate" somehow undermined the credibility of the Ukraine investigation then I don't know what to tell you. Public support for the inquiry is high. Trump, Giuliani, and others involved have admitted to most of the serious allegations. The 1.5 days of public inquiry have been pretty damaging to Trump's case and have left diehard Trump supporters sputtering in their defense.

Lay off the Chapo. The impeachment isn't not winning over Trump diehards because corporate Democants are botching it. It isn't winning them over because they have absolutely no interest in being persuaded, and it won't remove Trump from office because people don't punish Republican Senators for being bad. The Mueller report didn't do any tangible damage to the inquiry; if Hannity wasn't talking about Russia he'd be spouting off something else that is dumb. The idea that he or any of these people would honestly admit to the legitimacy of the probe is naive.

Nixon wouldn't have resigned if he had Fox News and an electorate of people who thought Hubert Humphrey murdered his own campaign staffers. The insinuation that there's any way to "force" Trump to resign is silly.

Obviously. It's hard to take establishment Democrats seriously.

Equally idiotic post even if this one was a bit more predictable.

[AtorBoltox]

Yes, Trumps campaign should have avoided assisting Russia in their efforts to interfere with the 2016 election and Trump should have avoided firing the FBI director in an attempt to impede an investigation

[Progressive Pessimist]

No f***ing way! Just because our idiot populace didn't end up caring about it doesn't mean that it wasn't an important investigation into the extent that a foreign power interfered with our elections and what encouragement or help they received from American actors.

We learned a ton of important and startling information about the whole affair through the many investigations, even if they didn't lead to Trumps' removal. It was necessary and worthwhile.

[forgotten manatee]

Incredibly bad thread and bad premise.

If your real concern is that "Russiagate" somehow undermined the credibility of the Ukraine investigation then I don't know what to tell you. Public support for the inquiry is high. Trump, Giuliani, and others involved have admitted to most of the serious allegations. The 1.5 days of public inquiry have been pretty damaging to Trump's case and have left diehard Trump supporters sputtering in their defense.

Lay off the Chapo. The impeachment isn't winning over Trump diehards because corporate Democants are botching it. It isn't winning them over because they have absolutely no interest in being persuaded, and it won't remove Trump from office because people don't punish Republican Senators for being bad. The Mueller report didn't do any tangible damage here; if Hannity wasn't talking about that he'd be spouting off something dumb. The idea that he or any of these people would honestly admit to the legitimacy of the probe is naive.

Nixon wouldn't have resigned if he had Fox News and an electorate of people who thought Hubert Humphrey murdered his own campaign staffers. The insinuation that there's any way to "force" Trump to resign is silly.


Basically. True blame for this whole mess lies at the feet of the American voter, particularly ones in the upper midwest.

[junior chįmp]

Is there any scandal under Trump that Trump hasn't cause himself?

[Koharu]

"Should we have told the people that Russians are meddling in our domestic affairs or should we just pretend that nothing is wrong?"

What kind of question is this? The government keeping the secret of Area 51 or whatever is terrible, but let's have them not let the public know they're being purposefully mislead by misinformation because

My God.

And if we're also including the Mueller Report as part of the "Russia Thing," it certainly didn't find the president innocent, so, uh, it wasn't a waste on that front either. If people want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend Russia isn't involved and Trump isn't guilty as a raccoon stuck in dumpster, that's their own flipping problem. I want to know about the threats to our country and I want to know if our president is committing crimes.

[TJ in Oregon]

The answer is probably yes. Trump's schtick is long been to get people to attack him badly, and probably would be combated best by refraining until something really bad shows up. This is probably their best opportunity so far.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

The answer is probably yes. Trump's schtick is long been to get people to attack him badly, and probably would be combated best by refraining until something really bad shows up. This is probably their best opportunity so far.

The insinuation in this post is that the Mueller Report revealed Trump did nothing "really bad" which is obviously wrong.

[DINGO Joe]

Well, really the whole "Trump thing" should have been avoided, so now we're stuck slogging thru his endless layers of corruption.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Imagine thinking that the US is controlled by foreign powers.

[Orser67]

Morally and politically, Democrats couldn't simply ignore credible accusations that a foreign power had interfered in the 2016 election.

There may be a grain of truth here, though, in that overreactions by some on the left (e.g. Rachel Maddow) may have somewhat undermined the credibility of the current investigation with some groups.

[DINGO Joe]

Imagine thinking that the US is controlled by foreign powers.

Imagine thinking foreign powers don't try to interfere in other countries

[Fuzzy Bear]

There is no evidence that Trump has committed an honest-to-goodness impeachable offense.  Perhaps something may arise, but there is nothing to date, and all of the sound and fury doesn't change it.  If there were such a thing, we'd have firsthand information, and we wouldn't be asking an Ambassador, under oath, about her "feelings" about a phone call, the transcript of with has been available for some time now.

The Mueller Report gives some people reason to vote against Trump.  The present proceedings give some people reason to vote against Trump.  (I'm not a big fan of Rudy Giuliani involving himself in foreign policy, although such a thing is not unprecedented.)  But the Democrats have blown their credibility with enough people in America to re-elect Trump.  Had they not done all of this, they'd be leading in the 2020 polls.  Instead, they're beginning to airlift candidates into the race.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

There is no evidence that Trump has committed an honest-to-goodness impeachable offense.

There's no evidence that Trump has committed a misdemeanor? Seriously?

Instead, they're beginning to airlift candidates into the race.

You're fundamentally misunderstanding why this is being done. Democratic voters are actually quite happy with the current field and Trump isn't breaking out of the low 40s in polling against any of them; it's donors and Beltway power brokers who are getting jitters about a field that (save for a visibly senile ur-insider and an Eddie Munsteresque small-city mayor) is dominated by #populist M4A proponents and who are trying to make Bloomberg and Patrick happen.