S.19.4-8: The Value of Self Determination Resolution (Passed)

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It is the position of this Chamber to urge the Federal government in Nyman to seriously consider an end to CAFTA, most-favored-nation status with the PRC and the beginning of economic sanctions against the PRC due to the situation in Hong Kong.

Sponsors: Muaddib, West_Midlander

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Fellow Delegates,

As Foreign Policy is in the purview of the Federal Government up in Nyman, the Southern Chamber would like to encourage the them to make a positive stand for self determination. Self determination is an important value in not only the South but in the whole of this great country of ours. I encourage the chamber to pass this resolution.

[West_Midlander]

Fellow Delegates,

As Foreign Policy is in the purview of the Federal Government up in Nyman, the Southern Chamber would like to encourage the them to make a positive stand for self determination. Self determination is an important value in not only the South but in the whole of this great country of ours. I encourage the chamber to pass this resolution.

Nyman can and should say and do something about the CCP's actions in the South China Sea, Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, and in other areas where it would be unorthodox for the Southern region to do so. I call on my fellow delegates to support this bill and for Nyman to seriously consider the suggestions within.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I like an end to CAFTA, but I'm skittish about the mere suggestion of treating China as though its akin to former North Korea, which is what sanctions would seem to imply. It's a massive player in the world economy and the most populous nation in the world - you can't just sanction it.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

China... ...a massive player in the world economy and the most populous nation in the world - you can't just sanction it.

It's that kind of attitude that allows the Communist China to get away with anything and everything.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

China... ...a massive player in the world economy and the most populous nation in the world - you can't just sanction it.

It's that kind of attitude that allows the Communist China to get away with anything and everything.

I favor hawkish measures within the bounds of rationality. There's no appetite in foreign capitals to put sanctions on China as though its some rogue government. We'd be isolating ourselves by pushing this, in essence, we'd give China some actual justification to harass us, something that will certainly end in Southerners having to pay higher sticker prices for everything. We'd be taxing our own citizens in hope of harming a government, in a scene reminiscient of Coyote and the Roadrunner, with us being the Coyote. This overall policy just does not jibe with my realist-pervaded mindset in regards to geopolitics. It just doesn't.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

I favor hawkish measures within the bounds of rationality. There's no appetite in foreign capitals to put sanctions on China as though its some rogue government. We'd be isolating ourselves by pushing this, in essence, we'd give China some actual justification to harass us, something that will certainly end in Southerners having to pay higher sticker prices for everything. We'd be taxing our own citizens in hope of harming a government, in a scene reminiscient of Coyote and the Roadrunner, with us being the Coyote. This overall policy just does not jibe with my realist-pervaded mindset in regards to geopolitics. It just doesn't.

At the end of the day the decision on something happening with regards to foreign policy is at the discretion to those up in Nyman. If you're happy to let China walk all over democratic processes for the sake of cheaper goods that's your prerogative. Also Atlasia is a big market and could come to new arrangements in other emerging markets when it comes to trade deals.

Mr. Speaker, Delegate TimTurner, would consider this resolution to be taxing China? Do you consider self determination through the democratic process important? What actions would you deem appropriate or in keeping with your "realist-pervaded mindset" regarding the value of self determination? Does Labor consider democratic processes and self determination abhorrent?

I'd be interested in what the Governor has to say on this issue. While the resolution wouldn't need the Governor's signature it would certainly add more weight to it. In the event that the Chamber passes the resolution.

[West_Midlander]

I favor hawkish measures within the bounds of rationality. There's no appetite in foreign capitals to put sanctions on China as though its some rogue government. We'd be isolating ourselves by pushing this, in essence, we'd give China some actual justification to harass us, something that will certainly end in Southerners having to pay higher sticker prices for everything. We'd be taxing our own citizens in hope of harming a government, in a scene reminiscient of Coyote and the Roadrunner, with us being the Coyote. This overall policy just does not jibe with my realist-pervaded mindset in regards to geopolitics. It just doesn't.

At the end of the day the decision on something happening with regards to foreign policy is at the discretion to those up in Nyman. If you're happy to let China walk all over democratic processes for the sake of cheaper goods that's your prerogative. Also Atlasia is a big market and could come to new arrangements in other emerging markets when it comes to trade deals.

Mr. Speaker, Delegate TimTurner, would consider this resolution to be taxing China? Do you consider self determination through the democratic process important? What actions would you deem appropriate or in keeping with your "realist-pervaded mindset" regarding the value of self determination? Does Labor consider democratic processes and self determination abhorrent?

I'd be interested in what the Governor has to say on this issue. While the resolution wouldn't need the Governor's signature it would certainly add more weight to it. In the event that the Chamber passes the resolution.

Well said. Absolutely. It should be the position of Atlasia to stand up for the rights of those without or with a limited voice and with limited freedoms. It is time to stop turning a blind eye, to stop ignoring the "three Ts" of Tiananmen, Tibet, and Taiwan, and to stand up to Red China.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I favor hawkish measures within the bounds of rationality. There's no appetite in foreign capitals to put sanctions on China as though its some rogue government. We'd be isolating ourselves by pushing this, in essence, we'd give China some actual justification to harass us, something that will certainly end in Southerners having to pay higher sticker prices for everything. We'd be taxing our own citizens in hope of harming a government, in a scene reminiscient of Coyote and the Roadrunner, with us being the Coyote. This overall policy just does not jibe with my realist-pervaded mindset in regards to geopolitics. It just doesn't.

At the end of the day the decision on something happening with regards to foreign policy is at the discretion to those up in Nyman. If you're happy to let China walk all over democratic processes for the sake of cheaper goods that's your prerogative. Also Atlasia is a big market and could come to new arrangements in other emerging markets when it comes to trade deals.

Mr. Speaker, Delegate TimTurner, would consider this resolution to be taxing China? Do you consider self determination through the democratic process important? What actions would you deem appropriate or in keeping with your "realist-pervaded mindset" regarding the value of self determination? Does Labor consider democratic processes and self determination abhorrent?

I'd be interested in what the Governor has to say on this issue. While the resolution wouldn't need the Governor's signature it would certainly add more weight to it. In the event that the Chamber passes the resolution.

I refuse to even lend moral support to a measure I see as abject stupidity.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that China can be replaced in the short-term either. Yes Atlasia can negotiate trade deals. But China is still the factory floor of the world. Like it or not. And China sees Xinjiang and Hong Kong as internal issues. The more they are pushed on that, the more hawkish the tack from Beijing becomes. They'd be stupid not to. That's what their people want. No Chinese administration will give up Hong Kong and Xinjiang while evading the loss of considerable political capital.

There's another problematic thing here, if one's talking about 'self-determination'. There seems to be a hubristic belief that Xinjiang would be very likely to break away from China in case of a free and fair referendum. The demographics of so-called East Turkestan are as follows: 45.84% Uyghur, 40.48% Han, 6.50% Kazakh, 4.51% Hui, 2.67% Other. Hui are basically Han who don't eat pork, so they will vote in unison with Han. You can assume that all Uighur, Kazakhs, and Others would back breaking away from China, producing a 55% majority right?

Wrong. Many Uighurs are in fact in the anti-independence camp because the government gives them lucrative jobs, for economy (there isn't a great economy there, it's a net economic plus for the area that it's within China) and many more simply have no aspirations to actually leave China regardless of what abuses Beijing has done, so we can rule out them voting to get out. Assume, generously, one-fifth of Uighurs want to stay in China and vote as such in the internationally supervised referendum over Xinjiang. Meanwhile almost no Han or Hui would support leaving, and Kazakhs would prefer China over the rule of a fellow East Turkic ethnicity, making for a 70-30 split. And Others are split much the same way. So what do we get? 59% voting to stay with Beijing.

But wait. The Uighur population is disproportionately young, so an unusually large of them wouldn't be eligible to vote in a referendum that would be only for above-17s. So that proportion is probably even higher, perhaps 62%. It's far from a certain case there is even a majority in Xinjiang for considering leaving. It's not worth giving Beijing the pound of flesh needed for them to even consider a referendum over the status of a territory of such importance to the Chinese government, and you're mistaken if you think the Chinese Communists would consider the sentiments of their own people secondary on a matter of such importance. I would note that territorial integrity is a principle enshrined in international law, and for good reason.

The give-and-take needed to make Beijing agree to self-determination-driven referendums in two territories of considerable importance to the government would be very costly for Atlasia. As for Hong Kong, its existence as an independent state would be unworkable for different reasons. It would be reliant on China for its water supply. You thought the difficulties Malaysia tries to pose Singapore over the fact that one of its states, Johor, provides them water were bad? Hong Kong's dependence on China for its water supply would make realistic independence impossible. When it comes down to it, it's a collection of highly populated rocks and a small peninsula in a strategic location in the Pearl Delta - it's not the most defensible. No serious, informed defense analyst in the past half-century has ever labelled an independent Hong Kong defensible in case of a PLA invasion, and it would be very hard for them not to do that.

And even in HK, there's no clear majority for independence either. The localist movement is definitely (but by no means uniformly) independentist but it's not a majority of the pan-democracy camp let alone of HK as a whole. I find it hard to conceive a scenario where HK actually would vote to leave China, especially given the ranks of mainland 'locusts' that have settled in Hong Kong. It should be noted that housing difficulties - something that has really driven the protests on a fundamental level - aren't actually something that Beijing has aggravated - those stem from a simple supply-and-demand issue involving land, which isn't something caused by Beijing but rather by local real-estate elites who profit off land scarcity, which is the main way the Hong Kong government funds its operations.

Earlier I summed up what I felt the best approach in regards to China was:
"The CPC needs to vigorously opposed using a mix of economic measures aimed at harming their access to financial markets and related objectives; defensive measures aimed at their territorial claims via vigorous defending our allies and partners in the region, such as the Philippines, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and India, and a broader geopolitical strategy that keeps powers like Pakistan and Burma from becoming unflinchingly hostile."

The Chinese respect strength. They take note of a carrier visiting the Spratlies, passing by the Senkaku, and of US military bases in South Korea and Okinawa. The Chinese leadership deeply understands the importance of money and the message sent by financial penalties aimed at Chinese companies and of moves taken against currency manipulation. It's a rational actor because its leadership is deeply strategic and acts in very sophisticated fashion. They never have no reason for doing something. They retain the support of a population driven by intense national pride and desire for greatness. To keep them down, we need to isolate them, much like how Bismarck isolated France. This means we can't go about it like a lone cowboy - we need to listen and understand and talk to neighbors, potential foes, and others in order to give China as little wiggle room as possible. And I don't think that, as much as ASEAN is a debate club as opposed to an alliance, that those nations would ponder extreme measures like sanctions as a serious suggestion, to give just one example of a context where we'd look silly and paranoid.

Like it or not, there are in fact hawkish moves that would not be worth the sheer cost, especially since China was recently humbled. Need we anger the Chinese dragon in a manner that is easily spun as an attempt to bring back the Century of Humiliation (and prove the CPC even more correct in the eyes of the populace)? We'd only be making life harder for those concerned, not better. I couldn't think of a more inhumane thing possible in the context of East Asian geopolitics.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Interesting that everyone's treating China as rather more serious a threat than they actually are, given they (in game) just lost the Second Korean War to the United States. It's rather unlikely they're still cracking down on Hong Kong and Xinjiang, causing any real threat to Taiwan or indeed causing any damage to the Atlasian economy given their entire merchant fleet was sunk in the war (per canon).

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Tim Turner in one post in this bill, 1096 words.
Tim Turner in the entirety of the previous two sessions of the chamber, 832 words.
Good to see you lifting your game.

Interesting that everyone's treating China as rather more serious a threat than they actually are, given they (in game) just lost the Second Korean War to the United States. It's rather unlikely they're still cracking down on Hong Kong and Xinjiang, causing any real threat to Taiwan or indeed causing any damage to the Atlasian economy given their entire merchant fleet was sunk in the war (per canon).

This is a good point and one which GM input would be helpful. I'm happy for us to delay a final vote should we want GM input into this issue. However considering the current activity levels in general it maybe advisable to create some activity.

I motion for a final vote.

Average words per Bill:

Delegate	Elcaspar	TSA	Tim Turner	reagente	DeadPrez	Eden	Muaddib
Words/Bill	64.9	15.6	17.1	16.4	97.6	0.4	139.9

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I second the motion.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

As there have been no objections voting is now open on S.19.4-8: The Value of Self Determination Resolution. Voting will last for 48 Hours or until all delegates have voted which ever comes first.

The resolution reads as follows:

It is the position of this Chamber to urge the Federal government in Nyman to seriously consider an end to CAFTA, most-favored-nation status with the PRC and the beginning of economic sanctions against the PRC due to the situation in Hong Kong.

Voting options are:
[   ] Aye
[   ] Nay
[   ] Abstain

[reagente]

Aye

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Aye

[West_Midlander]

Aye

[Leinad]

I support this.

I thank Tim for giving a well-informed opposition argument to this bill, and while he raises one or two good points (that the State Department should take into account, probably) I think I overall disagree.

For one thing, I don't agree with "most people there support PRC rule" as a justification for not trying to improve the human rights situation. While I can think of numerous examples where meddling outside influence made a situation worse against the wishes of the people in the name of "human rights," I can also think of numerous examples where a minority group in a region was oppressed yet due to humans' reluctance to oppose the status quo and some people supporting such oppression outright, it required outside efforts to ensure actual human rights. I think it's especially dangerous to use popular sovereignty as an argument in authoritarian states--they may "love Big Brother" but out of necessity instead of gratitude for just rule.

Besides, you sort of set it up as a question of "independence." There are numerous reasons one may oppose independence but still support less, y'know, human rights abuses and more personal freedom.

While I could definitely see more hawkish minds use the desire to improve the conditions of people in China as a jumping off point for escalating a 21st century Cold War, I trust the current administration to use restraint in such a matter.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Nay.
This resolution puts forth a specific hawkishness that I'm very uncomfortable with and just cannot accept.
There's no reason to give Beijing something guaranteed to aid them on net, better not to hand them a rope from which to hang efforts that actually would hurt their interests.
I must oppose this on principle, it's the kind of hawkishness that, though well-intended, does more harm than good.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I would say to the Governor - regardless of what moral case exists for some sort of intervention you speak of, it's unlikely the Chinese leadership would allow it to happen especially given their wounded pride as of late. So it'd come at the cost of either a pained compromise (that cedes tons of ground that we need and/or value) or another war. Regardless of the human rights abuses happening, I don't think another war with China sounds rational, I don't want Atlasian hard power wasted in an effort to attack China again for considerably weaker reasons.
This resolution, if the Administration tries to enact it, will considerably weaken our hand against China. It'll make Atlasia look like warmongerers, and further, it will only aid the Communists in China's popular support, the people will rally around the flag, including a major chunk of people in the regions this resolution purports to save.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

Voting is Closed

S.19.4-8: The Value of Self Determination Resolution passes.

S.19.4-8 Final Vote Tally:
[ 3 ] Aye
[ 1 ] Nay
[ 0 ] Abstain
[ 1 ] Absent  (Pragmatic_Populist)

As this is a resolution of the chamber, if the Governor would like to add his weight to the resolution. The time to formally do so would be now. The passed resolution reads as follows:

It is the position of this Chamber to urge the Federal government in Nyman to seriously consider an end to CAFTA, most-favored-nation status with the PRC and the beginning of economic sanctions against the PRC due to the situation in Hong Kong.

[Deep Dixieland Senator, Muad'dib (OSR MSR)]

I would say to the Governor - regardless of what moral case exists for some sort of intervention you speak of, it's unlikely the Chinese leadership would allow it to happen especially given their wounded pride as of late. So it'd come at the cost of either a pained compromise (that cedes tons of ground that we need and/or value) or another war. Regardless of the human rights abuses happening, I don't think another war with China sounds rational, I don't want Atlasian hard power wasted in an effort to attack China again for considerably weaker reasons.
This resolution, if the Administration tries to enact it, will considerably weaken our hand against China. It'll make Atlasia look like warmongerers, and further, it will only aid the Communists in China's popular support, the people will rally around the flag, including a major chunk of people in the regions this resolution purports to save.

While you've brought up some valid points it's ultimately the Federal governments prerogative to take action or not. This is obviously a position you are passionate about. I'm sure the Federal government will take your concern into account when taking action or not on this issue.

[Leinad]

Voting is Closed

S.19.4-8: The Value of Self Determination Resolution passes.

S.19.4-8 Final Vote Tally:
[ 3 ] Aye
[ 1 ] Nay
[ 0 ] Abstain
[ 1 ] Absent  (Pragmatic_Populist)

As this is a resolution of the chamber, if the Governor would like to add his weight to the resolution. The time to formally do so would be now. The passed resolution reads as follows:

It is the position of this Chamber to urge the Federal government in Nyman to seriously consider an end to CAFTA, most-favored-nation status with the PRC and the beginning of economic sanctions against the PRC due to the situation in Hong Kong.

X Governor Leinad