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  2020 U.S. Presidential Election (Moderators: Likely Voter, TJ in Oregon, YE, Senator ON Progressive)
  Why Right Leaning Posters on this forum should not support Trump in 2020
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Author Topic: Why Right Leaning Posters on this forum should not support Trump in 2020  (Read 1867 times)
SuperCow
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« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2019, 08:01:21 pm »

The fact that Bush 43 turned a generation against the GOP supports OSR’s argument.

Bush 43 turned Republicans and conservative independents agains the GOP by totally abandoning the agenda he promised us in the 2004 primary convention, following it up by bungling Iraq, losing the messaging war on Katrina, and violated conservative principles in 2008. No GOP could have won after that.

The long-term argument is BS. I believed that crap in 2008 and didn’t care about McCain’s loss. (I wasn’t eligible to vote back then yet anyway.) Then Romney campaigned like a wimp and we got the worst 8 years since I moved to this country. Trump won because we were tired of Obama, and we were tired of conservatives always giving in to the Democrats, and we were tired of people thinking that Bush, McCain, Romney and Kasich are conservative. We wanted someone who would make everyone mad and fight for what they believed in, regardless of his total lack of political niceties.

He will win again because he hasn’t stopped fighting, and the best he can do is keep fighting for four more years, and the next GOP has a better chance in this scenario, because people will be ready for someone who is more politically sensitive, but won’t feel like they have to give up their principles to win.

Trump needs to win for these reasons:

He needs to outlast Ginsburg and flip more circuit courts.
We can’t let the Dems dictate immigration policy, until the problem is fixed.
If we do have a recession, we don’t want a president thinking he can spend his way out of it. Even if it happened after Trump left office, he would still get blamed for it in the media, so that argument is DOA.
We can’t let the Dems dictate military policy, since every one who’s been president since FDR has been incompetent at it.

I wish someone would cut spending, but since everyone goes ape-@#$% whenever someone tries, it has become a non-issue to me, because they always give up.
I was hesitant on his trade policies, but they seem to be close to success, and it is another example of him not giving up due to backlash.
I’d hate to see corporate taxes go up again, even after it’s the main reason the economy hasn’t failed.




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Sen. Dean Heller
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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2019, 11:22:53 pm »

The fact that Bush 43 turned a generation against the GOP supports OSR’s argument.

I was born during his Presidency, only thing he did wrong was TARP/not taking Iran for a ride
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Sen. Dean Heller
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« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2019, 11:24:32 pm »

The fact that Bush 43 turned a generation against the GOP supports OSR’s argument.

Bush 43 turned Republicans and conservative independents agains the GOP by totally abandoning the agenda he promised us in the 2004 primary convention, following it up by bungling Iraq, losing the messaging war on Katrina, and violated conservative principles in 2008. No GOP could have won after that.

The long-term argument is BS. I believed that crap in 2008 and didn’t care about McCain’s loss. (I wasn’t eligible to vote back then yet anyway.) Then Romney campaigned like a wimp and we got the worst 8 years since I moved to this country. Trump won because we were tired of Obama, and we were tired of conservatives always giving in to the Democrats, and we were tired of people thinking that Bush, McCain, Romney and Kasich are conservative. We wanted someone who would make everyone mad and fight for what they believed in, regardless of his total lack of political niceties.

He will win again because he hasn’t stopped fighting, and the best he can do is keep fighting for four more years, and the next GOP has a better chance in this scenario, because people will be ready for someone who is more politically sensitive, but won’t feel like they have to give up their principles to win.

Trump needs to win for these reasons:

He needs to outlast Ginsburg and flip more circuit courts.
We can’t let the Dems dictate immigration policy, until the problem is fixed.
If we do have a recession, we don’t want a president thinking he can spend his way out of it. Even if it happened after Trump left office, he would still get blamed for it in the media, so that argument is DOA.
We can’t let the Dems dictate military policy, since every one who’s been president since FDR has been incompetent at it.

I wish someone would cut spending, but since everyone goes ape-@#$% whenever someone tries, it has become a non-issue to me, because they always give up.
I was hesitant on his trade policies, but they seem to be close to success, and it is another example of him not giving up due to backlash.
I’d hate to see corporate taxes go up again, even after it’s the main reason the economy hasn’t failed.






This. Also, he's the only guy with a chance in hell of beginning the mass deportations that we need, continuing to cut regulations, and defending the tax cuts.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2019, 12:09:30 am »

Thank you, OSR, for making this post. It's hard to resist the temptation to join the Trump train, as so many of your fellow Republican posters have done. The fact that you haven't already joined them really shows your commitment to actual conservative ideals and decency. I wish more Americans (both Republicans and Democrats) were like that in their commitments.

There were many  times I considered joining the Trump train but eveytime I was close to , Trump did something that pulled me out and after the Ukraine thing , I am fully done with Trump.

You're yelling into a void, Old School Republican. That ship sailed even before he won the 2016 primary. And clearly you learned very little from that time if you think the party is going to redeem itself with a more mainstream candidate in 2024. I don't know what a post-Trump GOP is going to look like, but I imagine that it will take longer than four years to truly outgrow Trumpism.

DeSantis , Haley would be great Presidents and I would support either of them enthusiastically
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2019, 03:15:55 am »

Largely agree. Barring a Bloomberg nomination and Presidency, I do think a Biden win in 2020 followed by a DeSantis win in 2024 is the best win for Conservatism overall. The risks of Trump 2020 into AOC 2024 are near-apocalyptic.

And this is why I will refuse to vote for Biden if he is the nominee.

Biden doesnt need Texas to win the General anyway. Just taking MI, PA , WI or AZ will do the job

That is not anywhere close to the point I was making. A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.

A re-elected Trump is preferable to a useless one-term Biden presidency. The Supreme Court is already f—ked anyway, so there’s not much risk there

Dude, winning the presidency is basically always a kind of pyrrhic victory, look at 2016 ; it was a big win for republicans on the short term but look at what was the cost of this win, we got trounced in 2018 when we lost 41 seats in the House and our dream of a 60 seats Senate majority never happened   

If Kasich or even Marco were President, the Republicans would still have control of the House today.

Yeah, but Kasich would have been a horrible president, over the last 5 years he has gone from a center right republican to a total RINO (vetoed the Heartbeat bill, endorsed gun control measures, backed tax increases on fracking, became a pro-immigration hack, wants the USA to move back inside the Paris agreement)

If you want to see a "horrible president," look at the garbage we have now.
I mean, one really has to be wearing some very large horse-blinders, to try to get away with saying how others would be a horrible president compared to the A$$-Clown occupying The Office today.
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ProudModerate2
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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2019, 03:26:21 am »

... A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.


I think you said it best ...


This is pure speculation and you have no proof to back that up
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Cory Booker
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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2019, 06:21:01 am »

... A Biden victory would be a Pyrrhic victory at best for Democrats and would almost definitely result in Republican blowouts in 2022 and 2024 with nothing to show for it other than getting Trump out of office.


I think you said it best ...


This is pure speculation and you have no proof to back that up


No, most of the Gov race and Senate races coincide with each other in 2022 and most of the 2016 Dem class are in Dem Gov states, that arent term limited except for Wolf in PA and Sestak can run for Senate at the same time Fetterman runs for Gov. Wi open seat is in WI, where Evers isnt term limited. Although,  2024 is less favorable,  OH with Sherrod Brown and Ojeda running for Manchin can vote Dem in a Dem reelection
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2019, 08:29:57 am »

This is basically a parody. A 80/20 Left/Right forum where the 20% right-wingers are already 15% NeverTrump and Kasich-type Republicans and 5% Trump-supporting. There is no need for this thread, you can already count genuine Trump-supporting Republicans on this forum on a hand.
We get it because you complain about it a lot. This forum is left-leaning, and you don't like that. If it bothers you so much, then leave.

I'm no fan of the OP, by the way.

I don't give a crap what distribution of ideology this forum is, my point stands, most Republicans on this forum do not support Trump and the number of regular posters that do is in the single digits. So this thread doesn't have very much use, and it's more of an echo-chamber than anything. That's what I was getting across.

And I don't complain about it a lot. You're completely pulling that out of your ass.
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Senator tack50 (Lab-Lincoln)
tack50
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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2019, 08:40:52 am »


1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.


I'll let you know that we already have an official Atlas definition of Socialism as done by esteemed political scientist Wulfric, and the public option is not socialism (but Medicare for all is). Here is the official Atlas definition of Socialism, in its 2 variants (by association and by admission):


This is the current version of the rules:

A socialist by association consists of ONLY the following:
1. Someone who voted for or endorsed Sanders for President,
2. Someone who is in Sanders's immediate family, and
3. Someone who was endorsed by Sanders during a primary election.

One may be absolved of this status by doing any of the following:

1. One may get elected to congress, governor, president, or state legislature and consistently advocate and vote for capitalist policies during a full term, or,

2. If applicable, may apologize for endorsing Sanders and admit that they endangered the country, or,

3. If Applicable, one may present convincing evidence that they have resisted their relation, or,

4. If Applicable, one may disavow Sanders's endorsement of their candidacy.

1. may be applied retroactively with my approval.

----------

A socialist by admission consists of ONLY the following:

1. Sponsors or Cosponsors of HR 676,
2. Sponsors or Cosponsors of Senate Bill 1804, and
3. Others who have clearly demonstrated, through the laws that they support, that they are not capitalists.

To absolve oneself of this status, one must withdraw their sponsorship of HR 676 or Senate Bill 1804 if applicable, and one must get elected to congress, governor, president, or state legislature and consistently advocate and vote for capitalist policies during a full term. In this case, there will be no retroactive application - they must serve a new term in office and behave appropriately during that term.
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Frenchrepublican
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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2019, 12:27:42 pm »

This is basically a parody. A 80/20 Left/Right forum where the 20% right-wingers are already 15% NeverTrump and Kasich-type Republicans and 5% Trump-supporting. There is no need for this thread, you can already count genuine Trump-supporting Republicans on this forum on a hand.
We get it because you complain about it a lot. This forum is left-leaning, and you don't like that. If it bothers you so much, then leave.

I'm no fan of the OP, by the way.

I don't give a crap what distribution of ideology this forum is, my point stands, most Republicans on this forum do not support Trump and the number of regular posters that do is in the single digits. So this thread doesn't have very much use, and it's more of an echo-chamber than anything. That's what I was getting across.

And I don't complain about it a lot. You're completely pulling that out of your ass.

The thing is many Atlas republicans are generally very ''soft republicans'' ; look at the huge number of blue avatars who endorsed Edwards or Hood
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UncleSam
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« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2019, 04:09:51 pm »

I earnestly wonder if tactical presidential election punting is going to become a thing. The fact that no one can get anything real done without large majorities necessitates lining up congressional and presidential electoral successes such that it is honestly probably better to punt certain elections at the top of the ballot from one party’s perspective or the other.

Either way 2 is a way better argument than 1. 1. is honestly nonsense - if I hire someone to do a job I care way more about how they do that job than about how they conduct themselves doing it. Results >>>>>> comportment, in other words. This is the way of the world and the fact is that Trump’s childishness should not be what anyone votes on either way in 2020. People should vote on his policies and how likely he is to enact them. The fact that those on the left oppose his policies is why Democrats should oppose him, and the fact that he is likely standing in the way of further conservative policies being passed in the future is why Republicans should oppose him. Honestly there’s an argument to Democrats being ok with him from that perspective, but only if you’re sufficiently left wing that a Biden presidency with a split congress (or weak majorities) will not earn you any serious policy wins.
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I Can Now Die Happy
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2019, 06:10:07 pm »

This is basically a parody. A 80/20 Left/Right forum where the 20% right-wingers are already 15% NeverTrump and Kasich-type Republicans and 5% Trump-supporting. There is no need for this thread, you can already count genuine Trump-supporting Republicans on this forum on a hand.

This is one of the best posts of 2019, thank you! Yes, this forum is largely an echochamber that lacks more self-awareness than your nearest narcissistic diva.

Keep in mind that OSR is someone who treats Atlas in the same way he treats forums to post his Star Wars Lore opinions in. NeverTrump Republicans are the 'good guys' to cheerlead and hype up, and getting along with Democrats is a virtue to feel good about adhering to, even if they walk all over you.

More and more and more right-leaning individuals are being drawn towards Trump. People like Ben Shapiro and Glenn Beck and so much more have realized that voting to re-elect Trump in 2020 is one of the most important things to accomplish if we don't want to doom ourselves. There are a few holdouts, like posters on Atlas who are too blinded with their own egos, too easily affected by the desire to go along with consensus and get "good boy points" or "good girl points" from the left (who'd stab them in the back once they become inconvenient), but by and large they are in the minority.

I intend to work very very hard to get as many right-wingers as possible on board the Trump Train, and thankfully many have already jumped on board since November 2016 due to various events like the Kavanaugh fiasco demonstrating how power hungry, dangerous, and malignant the American left is. Despite whatever grievances they've had with Trump, they are aware enough to see past their bruised egos, to see past shallow trivialities like "he speaks more like a working class guy than like Pete Buttigieg," to realize that backing him is crucial if we are to take a stand against the threats we face.  

The people who should be congratulated aren't people like the OP, it's people like Jimmy Dore, Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein, Tim Pool, et cetera who stick to their principles no matter how misguided they are, yet realize that the Democratic Party is rotten to its core, that its politicians simply aren't good people, that its voters are easily manipulable as evidenced by how they threw out admirable anti-war, anti-interventionist, pro-treat other human beings with respect stances, in favor of delusional Russophobia, mindless hawkishness, faux patriotism, terms of dehumanization (e.g. 'everyone who disputes my BS is a Russian bot,' 'Trump supporters are lower than dirt').

I could go on and on and on about this. Anyway ElectionsGuy, Atlas needs more people like you calling out threads like this. In the same way that I hope this country gets better from the many problems we face, USElectionAtlas's forum needs to get much, much better. I sometimes wonder if I shouldn't even leave because I believe I'm needed, and I believe that people like Yellowhammer, redeaglepolitics, 538Electoral, SN2903, Lechasseur, Frenchrepublican, and a few other 'rare gems' need to stick around rather than let this place deteriorate even further.

edit: should have mentioned Nuke as well. I'm probably forgetting a few others too. Sorry if I missed you!
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McNukes™ #NYCMMWasAHero
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2019, 06:28:09 pm »

I stopped reading at "Never Trumper from day 1" and then realized I had to continue my post, so:

"if I was voting on policy"
This is how everyone is voting.

"1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office [...] he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law."
The legal precedents involved are clear to me and the practical rationales for them have progressively become more cemented throughout the illegitimate, politically motivated investigations which have plagued this Presidency. Legal precedents since the 70s have made it clear that the impeachment process is the sole process for pressing criminal charges against the President, despite pretensions to the contrary by Democrats which have often contradicted themselves by contending that the President has used improper processes for otherwise licit actions. The State of New York has exploited the Constitution in a way the Founders probably never expected: Abuse of state investigative power for the sole purpose of interfering with a President from that state. They would have expected the President to exhibit such favoritism that the home state would attempt to support its President, but this has been reversed due to the fact that NY is a solid blue state. This is a clear attempt to influence federal politics by that State, and based on the fact that impeachment is the sole legitimate process for criminally charging a President, no State can possess the authority to press such charges. Furthermore, setting aside the issue of politically motivated prosecutions of the President's associates, the articles of impeachment describe neither any federal (or state) statute violated by the President nor any crime, and additionally rely on unsubstantiated claims, often made based on investigations which were never properly authorized, and are fundamentally illegitimate. The abuse of the impeachment process by Democrats must not go unpunished and the Democrats must face a severe punishment in 2020.

"2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection"
Tbh I actually think 2022 will go better than 2018 other than the really bad map in the Senate. Maybe not 2024, depends on whether or not the President successfully reforms immigration etc. You might be right or you could be wrong. Either way, I will vote for Trump's reelection because I need Obamacare repealed.
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Yellowhammer
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2019, 06:49:32 pm »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?
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Sen. Dean Heller
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2019, 09:07:06 pm »

I value my tax dollars and my freedoms more than the fact that the Orange Man said a bad word
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2019, 09:13:18 pm »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.


On the other hand if Trump loses in 2020, the Dems wont have that many seats to enact that much of their agenda other than at best temporaily taking us back to how things were before Trump . Then GOP can bide their time and come back with DeSantis , or Haley.



Trump winning 2020 will be the Republicans winning the battle but losing the war, and I would rather much have them lose the battle but not lose the war.


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Yellowhammer
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« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2019, 09:32:16 pm »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.

It's unlikely that the GOP will lose control of the senate in 2020. So three words: Supreme. Court. Vacancy.
Filling the likely vacancy will help us more in the long run than the hurt that will result from communists controlling the House and squandering this power for a few more cycles.

Not to mention all the other judicial vacancies there are still left to be filled.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2019, 09:35:16 pm »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.

It's unlikely that the GOP will lose control of the senate in 2020. So three words: Supreme. Court. Vacancy.
Filling the likely vacancy will help us more in the long run than the hurt that will result from communists controlling the House and squandering this power for a few more cycles.

Not to mention all the other judicial vacancies there are still left to be filled.


Republicans already have the court now. If Dems though get the trifecta in 2024 with 57+ senators(I would say likely if Trump wins) then single-payer likely passes, green new deal, massive just massive tax hikes will all become law which is a far bigger disaster
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« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2019, 09:40:59 pm »
« Edited: December 10, 2019, 09:44:07 pm by Jeff Sessions Hack »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.

It's unlikely that the GOP will lose control of the senate in 2020. So three words: Supreme. Court. Vacancy.
Filling the likely vacancy will help us more in the long run than the hurt that will result from communists controlling the House and squandering this power for a few more cycles.

Not to mention all the other judicial vacancies there are still left to be filled.


Republicans already have the court now. If Dems though get the trifecta in 2024 with 57+ senators(I would say likely if Trump wins) then single-payer likely passes, green new deal, massive just massive tax hikes will all become law which is a far bigger disaster

What the hell are you smoking? If Trump wins re-election, we are probably looking at having 52 - 54 R senators + Manchin & Sinema. No way in hell 9-11 senate seats flip in 2022 -- zero of those seats are in blue states. Specifically, just 6 of the R-held seats are in purple states (NC, GA, AZ, PA, WI, FL). Iowa and Ohio hardly count as swing states any more. A few would flip, but your prediction is beyond insane.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2019, 09:49:04 pm »

Sad to see you slowly melting into the Borg.

Vote for guy who openly wants to crush the poor with taxes to force them to live like he wants them to instead! How can you take yourself seriously?

You yourself acknowledge the GOP winning a third term is gonna be almost impossible in 2024, and that 2022 map is an absolute disaster for the GOP and that doenst include factors like the 6 year itch and a very proabable recession. So what will happen is The GOP by 2024 may be wiped out to near 2009 levels and unlike in 2009-10 there will be almost no blue dogs left to stop a far left agenda.

It's unlikely that the GOP will lose control of the senate in 2020. So three words: Supreme. Court. Vacancy.
Filling the likely vacancy will help us more in the long run than the hurt that will result from communists controlling the House and squandering this power for a few more cycles.

Not to mention all the other judicial vacancies there are still left to be filled.


Republicans already have the court now. If Dems though get the trifecta in 2024 with 57+ senators(I would say likely if Trump wins) then single-payer likely passes, green new deal, massive just massive tax hikes will all become law which is a far bigger disaster

What the hell are you smoking? If Trump wins re-election, we are probably looking at having 52 - 54 R senators + Manchin & Sinema. No way in hell 9-11 senate seats flip in 2022 -- zero of those seats are in blue states. A few would flip, but your prediction is beyond insane.




There likely will be a recession in 2022 so if Trump wins and say Republicans have 52-53 seats they will lose : PA, WI, IA, GA, AZ(if McSally wins) for sure and OH probably too since recessions hit states like OH very badly compared to the rest of the nation  . So that means they lose 6 and that drops Republicans down to 47 seats. Then in 2024 they probably lose TX, FL and some other surprise race and that drops them to 44. Ok so thats 56-44 and Dems probably then may well wipe the filibuster out and other than Manchin, Sinema , Tester well that passes and with a far left president well then so many things will get passed.
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« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2019, 11:34:24 pm »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.
"Nazi Bolsonaro" is a hilarious idea.
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« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2019, 12:00:18 am »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.

Bolsonaro is epic though, and Haddad is no blairite
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Cory Booker
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« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2019, 12:12:28 am »

OH have a bigger AA population in Akron, Cincinnati and Cleveland,  I can very well see OH voting to the left of IA this time. If Tim Ryan is redistricted out by DeWine and GOP leaders,  he can run against Portman, who only won, due to Strickland saying Scalia's death was a good thing, before that, Portman trailed Strickland the entire campaign
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R.P. McM
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« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2019, 01:12:17 am »

It's a much bigger one, and yes. As Alex Tocqueville once said, America will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe us with our own money. And besides, the fact that I wouldn't want Trump to babysit my family won't ever justify robbing those who work hard to pay for the takers and gimmes of this world.

Tocqueville didn't actually say this. It's not really something that could have even come up in 1835: the US didn't even have an income tax at the time and primarily relied on tariffs for revenue. Federal government programs aimed at popular needs weren't even really an idea that existed in the 1830s outside of the Whig push for building roads and bridges and ports and lighthouses and such, which are far from anything we'd think of as welfare today.

Yeah, it immediately struck me as BS, but such is the intellectual level of the modern right. And this thread is a perfect encapsulation of why we can't possibly get along and just need to separate. Conservatives are divorced from empirical reality, and imagine that the rest of us will just continue to tolerate their undemocratic, authoritarian, minority rule from the Presidency, the Senate, and the Judiciary. I'm afraid not. But I hope they keep pushing, because there are parts of this country that I would absolutely love to jettison.
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Frenchrepublican
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« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2019, 04:52:18 am »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.
"Nazi Bolsonaro" is a hilarious idea.

Yeah, he is probably the most '' Israel friendly '' Brazilian leader in decades
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