Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 28, 2020, 05:06:00 am
News: 2020 Mock/Endorsements for Presidential Primaries are now open.

  Atlas Forum
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  2020 U.S. Presidential Election (Moderators: Likely Voter, TJ in Oregon, YE, Senator ON Progressive)
  Why Right Leaning Posters on this forum should not support Trump in 2020 (search mode)
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Why Right Leaning Posters on this forum should not support Trump in 2020  (Read 1889 times)
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« on: December 08, 2019, 10:30:50 pm »

I get why you want to support Trump as even though I have been a Never Trumper from day 1, there have been many times I have considered leaving that Never Trump Train .

Yes I like many of his policies such as : Taxes  , Regulations, his economic policy in general, China, Judges and despise the direction the Democratic Party is going. So if I was just voting on policy, yes I would vote for Trump in 2020. So despite that I believe conservatives should not vote for Trump in 2020 and these are the reasons

1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office of President of the United States in every way possible and now to add insult to injury over the past few months he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law.

If you are a principled conservative that alone should disqualify them alone from getting your vote as that violates every basic conservative principle possible. Now if this isnt enough (which it should be) here is the political reason why you shouldnt support Trump in 2020


2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection

2022 and 2024 are very likely going to be bloodbaths for the GOP during Trump's 2nd term as there very likely will be a recession in that time period , Trump fatigue will be at all time levels. So if you are scared of a Democratic Presidency now imagine after 2024 when Dems win the Presidency in a 2008 style victory with massive majorities in Congress. That means with those majorities single-payer, massive tax hikes , amnesty etc will pass easily as unlike 2009-10 there are basically no blue dogs left and history has showsn when new programs are created its almost impossible to repeal them. Right now yes a Dem will win will move the nation to the left but they wont have the majoirty to pass the  far left agenda .

Oh and add Texas could be lost for the GOP in 2024 after 8 years of Trump which will throw the party wilderness for many years so tell me what has Trump done that will be worth all this. Now I am sure you would all agree that Bush winning a 2nd term in 2004 wasnt worth it




1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

2. Yes, and this is all a major worry to me. But he's the only credible choice for my values, so I'm sticking with him. Better dead than red isn't just a slogan.

3. It was worth it. Bush 04 was a good thing - it was what happened after that wasn't.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2019, 10:46:17 pm »

I get why you want to support Trump as even though I have been a Never Trumper from day 1, there have been many times I have considered leaving that Never Trump Train .

Yes I like many of his policies such as : Taxes  , Regulations, his economic policy in general, China, Judges and despise the direction the Democratic Party is going. So if I was just voting on policy, yes I would vote for Trump in 2020. So despite that I believe conservatives should not vote for Trump in 2020 and these are the reasons

1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office of President of the United States in every way possible and now to add insult to injury over the past few months he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law.

If you are a principled conservative that alone should disqualify them alone from getting your vote as that violates every basic conservative principle possible. Now if this isnt enough (which it should be) here is the political reason why you shouldnt support Trump in 2020


2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection

2022 and 2024 are very likely going to be bloodbaths for the GOP during Trump's 2nd term as there very likely will be a recession in that time period , Trump fatigue will be at all time levels. So if you are scared of a Democratic Presidency now imagine after 2024 when Dems win the Presidency in a 2008 style victory with massive majorities in Congress. That means with those majorities single-payer, massive tax hikes , amnesty etc will pass easily as unlike 2009-10 there are basically no blue dogs left and history has showsn when new programs are created its almost impossible to repeal them. Right now yes a Dem will win will move the nation to the left but they wont have the majoirty to pass the  far left agenda .

Oh and add Texas could be lost for the GOP in 2024 after 8 years of Trump which will throw the party wilderness for many years so tell me what has Trump done that will be worth all this. Now I am sure you would all agree that Bush winning a 2nd term in 2004 wasnt worth it




1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

2. Yes, and this is all a major worry to me. But he's the only credible choice for my values, so I'm sticking with him. Better dead than red isn't just a slogan.

3. It was worth it. Bush 04 was a good thing - it was what happened after that wasn't.


1. How will they get socialist agenda passed with 50-52 senators (assuming they take majoirty) , as there are more than 3 Dems that oppose repealing filibuster.

2. Sacrificing Long Term for Short Term is not worth it

3. How can you say that now, its not like Bush got anything done in term 2 anyway and left the GOP in shambles and may have begun the process of the total destruction of Neo-Liberalism. If Kerry won in 2004 he would have had to work with a GOP congress , then in 2008 either Romney or McCain sweep in with huge majoirties.

1. EOs and the big regulatory state

2. Until the short term becomes the long term maybe. But it's incredibly hard to repeal an entitlement program - see Obamacare - and the odds are that if a public option was passed, we'd be stuck with it - forever.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2019, 10:57:23 pm »

I get why you want to support Trump as even though I have been a Never Trumper from day 1, there have been many times I have considered leaving that Never Trump Train .

Yes I like many of his policies such as : Taxes  , Regulations, his economic policy in general, China, Judges and despise the direction the Democratic Party is going. So if I was just voting on policy, yes I would vote for Trump in 2020. So despite that I believe conservatives should not vote for Trump in 2020 and these are the reasons

1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office of President of the United States in every way possible and now to add insult to injury over the past few months he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law.

If you are a principled conservative that alone should disqualify them alone from getting your vote as that violates every basic conservative principle possible. Now if this isnt enough (which it should be) here is the political reason why you shouldnt support Trump in 2020


2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection

2022 and 2024 are very likely going to be bloodbaths for the GOP during Trump's 2nd term as there very likely will be a recession in that time period , Trump fatigue will be at all time levels. So if you are scared of a Democratic Presidency now imagine after 2024 when Dems win the Presidency in a 2008 style victory with massive majorities in Congress. That means with those majorities single-payer, massive tax hikes , amnesty etc will pass easily as unlike 2009-10 there are basically no blue dogs left and history has showsn when new programs are created its almost impossible to repeal them. Right now yes a Dem will win will move the nation to the left but they wont have the majoirty to pass the  far left agenda .

Oh and add Texas could be lost for the GOP in 2024 after 8 years of Trump which will throw the party wilderness for many years so tell me what has Trump done that will be worth all this. Now I am sure you would all agree that Bush winning a 2nd term in 2004 wasnt worth it




1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

2. Yes, and this is all a major worry to me. But he's the only credible choice for my values, so I'm sticking with him. Better dead than red isn't just a slogan.

3. It was worth it. Bush 04 was a good thing - it was what happened after that wasn't.


1. How will they get socialist agenda passed with 50-52 senators (assuming they take majoirty) , as there are more than 3 Dems that oppose repealing filibuster.

2. Sacrificing Long Term for Short Term is not worth it

3. How can you say that now, its not like Bush got anything done in term 2 anyway and left the GOP in shambles and may have begun the process of the total destruction of Neo-Liberalism. If Kerry won in 2004 he would have had to work with a GOP congress , then in 2008 either Romney or McCain sweep in with huge majoirties.

1. EOs and the big regulatory state

2. Until the short term becomes the long term maybe. But it's incredibly hard to repeal an entitlement program - see Obamacare - and the odds are that if a public option was passed, we'd be stuck with it - forever.

1. Which can basically be reversed with a stroke of a Pen like Trump has done and Obama did to much of Bush's EO's. Same with regulations

2. Public Option> Single Payer and if Trump wins in 2020 , then dems will very likely have majorities to pass single payer in 2025. Its not a great choice but Trump's and the GOP massive failure on healthcare in 2017 is the reason why that is the remaining choice . Also with a small majority I think really the only things will pass on healthcare: are the restoration of Obamacare Mandate, price controls for prescription drugs, and expansion of Medicaid.

On taxes no way such a large tax increase passes with that small majority other than just raising corporate tax from 20%-28% which would still be lower than the Pre 2017 rates.
Conceding the battles of today so we can win the battles of tomorrow is stupid, because it'll just make them stronger and more aggressive for them. Plus, we can't truly ever predict the future, even if we can place odds on it. Who knows how the next few years will turn out? Who would have predicted in 2012 that Donald Trump would be President today?
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2019, 10:59:45 pm »
« Edited: December 08, 2019, 11:02:51 pm by Sen. Dean Heller »

I get why you want to support Trump as even though I have been a Never Trumper from day 1, there have been many times I have considered leaving that Never Trump Train .

Yes I like many of his policies such as : Taxes  , Regulations, his economic policy in general, China, Judges and despise the direction the Democratic Party is going. So if I was just voting on policy, yes I would vote for Trump in 2020. So despite that I believe conservatives should not vote for Trump in 2020 and these are the reasons

1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office of President of the United States in every way possible and now to add insult to injury over the past few months he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law.

If you are a principled conservative that alone should disqualify them alone from getting your vote as that violates every basic conservative principle possible. Now if this isnt enough (which it should be) here is the political reason why you shouldnt support Trump in 2020


2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection

2022 and 2024 are very likely going to be bloodbaths for the GOP during Trump's 2nd term as there very likely will be a recession in that time period , Trump fatigue will be at all time levels. So if you are scared of a Democratic Presidency now imagine after 2024 when Dems win the Presidency in a 2008 style victory with massive majorities in Congress. That means with those majorities single-payer, massive tax hikes , amnesty etc will pass easily as unlike 2009-10 there are basically no blue dogs left and history has showsn when new programs are created its almost impossible to repeal them. Right now yes a Dem will win will move the nation to the left but they wont have the majoirty to pass the  far left agenda .

Oh and add Texas could be lost for the GOP in 2024 after 8 years of Trump which will throw the party wilderness for many years so tell me what has Trump done that will be worth all this. Now I am sure you would all agree that Bush winning a 2nd term in 2004 wasnt worth it




1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

2. Yes, and this is all a major worry to me. But he's the only credible choice for my values, so I'm sticking with him. Better dead than red isn't just a slogan.

3. It was worth it. Bush 04 was a good thing - it was what happened after that wasn't.
Literally sums up everything wrong with you guys. So “socialism”  and “entitlement” is a fundamental threat to democracy but Trump undermining the rule of law along with checks and balances isn’t? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Practically ever other western democracy from Canada, Britain, France, Germany, and the Scandinavias elect socialists into power all the time along with having a bigger nanny state then us and they are mostly healthy democracies. The idea that mainstream liberal positions on healthcare and welfare you think is more dangerous than Trump’s conduct shows how off the spectrum your ideological movement has gone

It's a much bigger one, and yes. As Alex Tocqueville once said, America will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe us with our own money. And besides, the fact that I wouldn't want Trump to babysit my family won't ever justify robbing those who work hard to pay for the takers and gimmes of this world.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2019, 12:53:14 am »

I get why you want to support Trump as even though I have been a Never Trumper from day 1, there have been many times I have considered leaving that Never Trump Train .

Yes I like many of his policies such as : Taxes  , Regulations, his economic policy in general, China, Judges and despise the direction the Democratic Party is going. So if I was just voting on policy, yes I would vote for Trump in 2020. So despite that I believe conservatives should not vote for Trump in 2020 and these are the reasons

1. His behavior has utterly disgraced the office of President of the United States in every way possible and now to add insult to injury over the past few months he has openly made it clear he believes he is above the law.

If you are a principled conservative that alone should disqualify them alone from getting your vote as that violates every basic conservative principle possible. Now if this isnt enough (which it should be) here is the political reason why you shouldnt support Trump in 2020


2. Imagine 2022 and 2024 in a Trump reelection

2022 and 2024 are very likely going to be bloodbaths for the GOP during Trump's 2nd term as there very likely will be a recession in that time period , Trump fatigue will be at all time levels. So if you are scared of a Democratic Presidency now imagine after 2024 when Dems win the Presidency in a 2008 style victory with massive majorities in Congress. That means with those majorities single-payer, massive tax hikes , amnesty etc will pass easily as unlike 2009-10 there are basically no blue dogs left and history has showsn when new programs are created its almost impossible to repeal them. Right now yes a Dem will win will move the nation to the left but they wont have the majoirty to pass the  far left agenda .

Oh and add Texas could be lost for the GOP in 2024 after 8 years of Trump which will throw the party wilderness for many years so tell me what has Trump done that will be worth all this. Now I am sure you would all agree that Bush winning a 2nd term in 2004 wasnt worth it




1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.

2. Yes, and this is all a major worry to me. But he's the only credible choice for my values, so I'm sticking with him. Better dead than red isn't just a slogan.

3. It was worth it. Bush 04 was a good thing - it was what happened after that wasn't.
Literally sums up everything wrong with you guys. So “socialism”  and “entitlement” is a fundamental threat to democracy but Trump undermining the rule of law along with checks and balances isn’t? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Practically ever other western democracy from Canada, Britain, France, Germany, and the Scandinavias elect socialists into power all the time along with having a bigger nanny state then us and they are mostly healthy democracies. The idea that mainstream liberal positions on healthcare and welfare you think is more dangerous than Trump’s conduct shows how off the spectrum your ideological movement has gone

It's a much bigger one, and yes. As Alex Tocqueville once said, America will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe us with our own money. And besides, the fact that I wouldn't want Trump to babysit my family won't ever justify robbing those who work hard to pay for the takers and gimmes of this world.
Have you ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?
Someday an actual socialist will run for president and no one will believe you all after years of fake-scares.

Literally Bernie.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2019, 01:48:36 am »

1. Socialism is worse. Even Biden supports a public option, which would be another disastrous entitlement program, bankrupt many insurers and hospitals, and throw tons of people off their healthcare plans (healthcare becomes less of a perk when it can also be gotten free, so businesses would stop offering it). Plus, it'd put too many lives into the hands of government and expand the role of government too much. People fail to talk about this, but even Biden would raise taxes by a trillion + more than Clinton would have, and I didn't vote for her either.


You're just making stuff up about Biden here.  Biden is not proposing to raise taxes by even as much as Clinton was, much less 1 trillion more than Clinton.  Meanwhile, a public option is not an entitlement, you are confusing it with single payer when they are two extremely different things.  People have to pay for the public option.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/biden-tax-plan-would-raise-3-2-trillion-by-targeting-the-rich-amazon-and-netflix

Versus

https://www.atr.org/full-list-hillary-s-planned-tax-hikes

$2.2 trillion more.

It's time to reduce the size of government, not expand by trillions of dollars. Even the Democratic "moderates" are no moderates at all.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2019, 03:39:14 pm »

This is basically a parody. A 80/20 Left/Right forum where the 20% right-wingers are already 15% NeverTrump and Kasich-type Republicans and 5% Trump-supporting. There is no need for this thread, you can already count genuine Trump-supporting Republicans on this forum on a hand.

Amen
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2019, 11:22:53 pm »

The fact that Bush 43 turned a generation against the GOP supports OSR’s argument.

I was born during his Presidency, only thing he did wrong was TARP/not taking Iran for a ride
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 11:24:32 pm »

The fact that Bush 43 turned a generation against the GOP supports OSR’s argument.

Bush 43 turned Republicans and conservative independents agains the GOP by totally abandoning the agenda he promised us in the 2004 primary convention, following it up by bungling Iraq, losing the messaging war on Katrina, and violated conservative principles in 2008. No GOP could have won after that.

The long-term argument is BS. I believed that crap in 2008 and didn’t care about McCain’s loss. (I wasn’t eligible to vote back then yet anyway.) Then Romney campaigned like a wimp and we got the worst 8 years since I moved to this country. Trump won because we were tired of Obama, and we were tired of conservatives always giving in to the Democrats, and we were tired of people thinking that Bush, McCain, Romney and Kasich are conservative. We wanted someone who would make everyone mad and fight for what they believed in, regardless of his total lack of political niceties.

He will win again because he hasn’t stopped fighting, and the best he can do is keep fighting for four more years, and the next GOP has a better chance in this scenario, because people will be ready for someone who is more politically sensitive, but won’t feel like they have to give up their principles to win.

Trump needs to win for these reasons:

He needs to outlast Ginsburg and flip more circuit courts.
We can’t let the Dems dictate immigration policy, until the problem is fixed.
If we do have a recession, we don’t want a president thinking he can spend his way out of it. Even if it happened after Trump left office, he would still get blamed for it in the media, so that argument is DOA.
We can’t let the Dems dictate military policy, since every one who’s been president since FDR has been incompetent at it.

I wish someone would cut spending, but since everyone goes ape-@#$% whenever someone tries, it has become a non-issue to me, because they always give up.
I was hesitant on his trade policies, but they seem to be close to success, and it is another example of him not giving up due to backlash.
I’d hate to see corporate taxes go up again, even after it’s the main reason the economy hasn’t failed.






This. Also, he's the only guy with a chance in hell of beginning the mass deportations that we need, continuing to cut regulations, and defending the tax cuts.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2019, 09:07:06 pm »

I value my tax dollars and my freedoms more than the fact that the Orange Man said a bad word
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2019, 12:00:18 am »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.

Bolsonaro is epic though, and Haddad is no blairite
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 11:32:11 am »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.
"Nazi Bolsonaro" is a hilarious idea.

Yeah, he is probably the most '' Israel friendly '' Brazilian leader in decades
Nazis and anti-Semites can definitely support Israel.

Huh

Also, Bolsonaro is 100% not an anti-semite lol. He's a good President.
Logged
Sen. Dean Heller
Haley/Ryan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1,107
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.13, S: 1.57

« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2019, 03:30:35 pm »

Right wingers always have historically chosen fascism even against the most milquetoast leftists (just see them voting for Nazi Bolsonaro over Blairite Haddad in Brazil). Not worth it, you'll get 5 of them to vote for Joe Biden and no one else.
"Nazi Bolsonaro" is a hilarious idea.

Yeah, he is probably the most '' Israel friendly '' Brazilian leader in decades
Nazis and anti-Semites can definitely support Israel.

Huh

Also, Bolsonaro is 100% not an anti-semite lol. He's a good President.
He's a fantastic president if you hate the gays, the Amazon and indigenous people, but I'm sure you do.

I don't know if he's an anti-semite, but Frenchrepublican (lol) implied that anti-semites can't support Israel. They can, particularly if they see it as a place to put all da Jooz so they don't have to deal with them. And of course, white nationalists in particular can see Israel as an inspiration for their desired ethnostate.

Don't hate any of them, but I do support much needed pension reform and opening up Brazil for economic growth (instead of more dumb red tape).
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length
Logout

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

© Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Elections, LLC