Don Jr. kills endangered sheep in Mongolia

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

JD acting perfectly not unhinged here.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

^  Did Dave Leip ever add an Captcha requirement when registering for an account?  If not, he should.

DOES NOT COMPUTE ::: EXPLAIN HUMAN EMOTION: "VALUE"

No further comment necessary.

Your comment seems to concede that "value" is a human judgement, which is the very point you were just trying to refute. Oops.

Uh, I'm not even trying to make a point here, other than to point out that your apparent position and language here are not typically espoused by a member of the human race.  And thus it'd be a waste of my time and energy to try.

 language such as "your apparent position and language here are not typically espoused by a member of the human race" is also not typically espoused by a member of the human race.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Philosophically I tend to agree with Smiling John. I think environmental stewardship is important but only because the environment is of benefit to humans. I think "Deep Ecology" is beyond nutty, a human and a mosquito are not equivalent, and the Earth would have no value if there were no humans. Any insistence that "Mother Earth" or "Mother Nature" or "Gaea" imbues literarly any life with "value" anywhere near equivalent to humans seems silly. If it were possible to exterminate ticks and ringworms (other than in custody) Id support that without a second thought about some nonsense intrinsic value of parasites. When the real nuts like the Queen's husband claim its good to kill people to "save the Earth" I tend to view that as crazy.

[Badger]

It's a friggin' sheep, you guys. Chill.

It's not a friggin sheep, which are more than plentiful around the world. It's an endangered species.

Do you really think Don Jr would get off on just shooting a regular run-of-the-mill sheep?

[Badger]

It's a friggin' sheep, you guys. Chill.

But something something Cheeto Hitler bad!

What part of "endangered species" don't you two geniuses understand?

Yes, let us devote our energy and outrage to the all-important issue of preserving the existence of the Central Asian mountain sheep, on which all else depends.

You are such a closed-minded fool if that is the way you think about the preservation of animals species on our planet.
They have a right to exist also. We have destroyed many habitats making it difficult for them to survive and live; yet alone just shooting them outright, like Orange Moron Jr.
There is no room for discussion with you on this entire topic (thread). Just exit and stay out.

An animal's only value is in the utility it provides to humans.

Google the term biological genetic diversity, and start reading.

John, you are a quality poster, and I don't say that about many people, hardly anyone really, who identifies as a Libertarian. But you are out of your depth here.

[Landslide Lyndon]

language such as "your apparent position and language here are not typically espoused by a member of the human race" is also not typically espoused by a member of the human race.

Not everybody uses a third grade vocabulary like Trump.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Who gives a sh**t, it's a sheep

[HillGoose]

rip Mr. Sheep

[John Dule]

It's a friggin' sheep, you guys. Chill.

But something something Cheeto Hitler bad!

What part of "endangered species" don't you two geniuses understand?

Yes, let us devote our energy and outrage to the all-important issue of preserving the existence of the Central Asian mountain sheep, on which all else depends.

You are such a closed-minded fool if that is the way you think about the preservation of animals species on our planet.
They have a right to exist also. We have destroyed many habitats making it difficult for them to survive and live; yet alone just shooting them outright, like Orange Moron Jr.
There is no room for discussion with you on this entire topic (thread). Just exit and stay out.

An animal's only value is in the utility it provides to humans.

Google the term biological genetic diversity, and start reading.

John, you are a quality poster, and I don't say that about many people, hardly anyone really, who identifies as a Libertarian. But you are out of your depth here.

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

[Progressive Pessimist]

It's a friggin' sheep, you guys. Chill.

It's not a friggin sheep, which are more than plentiful around the world. It's an endangered species.

Do you really think Don Jr would get off on just shooting a regular run-of-the-mill sheep?

Who even hunts sheep anyway? That's some major overkill. That suggests that the appeal of "hunting" it was the fact that it was endangered. That's just s***ty.

I always thought that hunting was an unfair "sport" but this is ridiculous.

I hope that when Don Jr. meets his end, it's at the hands (or claws, or hooves, or talons, or whatever) of a wild animal. That would be some glorious irony.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Personally, I'm actually less concerned about "the sheep" than Don Junior's seemingly - but not unsurprising - decadent approach to life.

"Hey, look, there's some stupid sheep! Hand me a rifle, I always wanted to shoot me a sheep. *bang* What, you're telling me now that shooting sheep is against the law around here if you don't have a government permit? Damn commies, that's not how we do it back home in 'Murica. Can't you get me some permit afterwards? After all, I'm the son of the f***ing President of the United States! Oh, no problem? Great!"

[T'Chenka]

It's a friggin' sheep, you guys. Chill.

But something something Cheeto Hitler bad!

What part of "endangered species" don't you two geniuses understand?

Yes, let us devote our energy and outrage to the all-important issue of preserving the existence of the Central Asian mountain sheep, on which all else depends.

You are such a closed-minded fool if that is the way you think about the preservation of animals species on our planet.
They have a right to exist also. We have destroyed many habitats making it difficult for them to survive and live; yet alone just shooting them outright, like Orange Moron Jr.
There is no room for discussion with you on this entire topic (thread). Just exit and stay out.

An animal's only value is in the utility it provides to humans.

Google the term biological genetic diversity, and start reading.

John, you are a quality poster, and I don't say that about many people, hardly anyone really, who identifies as a Libertarian. But you are out of your depth here.

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

Nobody here said that they were....

[John Dule]

Nobody here said that they were....

then y u care bby

[T'Chenka]

Nobody here said that they were....

then y u care bby

How much humans (or theocal ecosystem) can benefit from an endangered species isn't the only consideration in preventing or not preventing extinction. It isn't always about cost-benefit analysis.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Next thing you know he'll start asking why do we keep around disabled humans whose utility is non-existent for the rest of us.

[John Dule]

Next thing you know he'll start asking why do we keep around disabled humans whose utility is non-existent for the rest of us.

No, but I do wonder why we keep you around on this forum when you provide us absolutely no utility at all.

[MT Treasurer]

Stuff like this really sickens me for some reason, and I do think the indifference of many posters to this illustrates a broader lack of empathy for sentient beings in general, including human beings. Unfortunately, he and Gianforte also have been doing this in Montana for years now, and the thought of having a governor who takes pride in shooting countless prairie dogs and moose just for fun and posing in front of his animal trophies is seriously unsettling.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Son of President flagrantly breaks the law with a gun in a foreign country, gets off scott free.

Republicans: "His dad has an (R) after his name, so who cares?"

Just one more bit of evidence - were any more needed - that Republicans oppose rule of law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Son of President flagrantly breaks the law with a gun in a foreign country, gets off scott free.

Republicans: "His dad has an (R) after his name, so who cares?"

Just one more bit of evidence - were any more needed - that Republicans oppose rule of law.

Hard to associate "rule of law" with the Mongolian argali hunting permitting process.

"The right to kill an argali is controlled by an opaque permitting system that experts say is mostly based on money, connections and politics."
ProPublica

Sounds like Don Jr followed the spirit of the law as practiced if not the letter.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Son of President flagrantly breaks the law with a gun in a foreign country, gets off scott free.

Republicans: "His dad has an (R) after his name, so who cares?"

Just one more bit of evidence - were any more needed - that Republicans oppose rule of law.

That's dumb. We aren't exactly being hypocritical here - when else have we advocated for protections for endangered sheep?

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Philosophically I tend to agree with Smiling John. I think environmental stewardship is important but only because the environment is of benefit to humans. I think "Deep Ecology" is beyond nutty, a human and a mosquito are not equivalent, and the Earth would have no value if there were no humans. Any insistence that "Mother Earth" or "Mother Nature" or "Gaea" imbues literarly any life with "value" anywhere near equivalent to humans seems silly. If it were possible to exterminate ticks and ringworms (other than in custody) Id support that without a second thought about some nonsense intrinsic value of parasites. When the real nuts like the Queen's husband claim its good to kill people to "save the Earth" I tend to view that as crazy.

This is a strawman. There are several value systems and schools of thought which value endangered species which don't have anything to do with what you posted.

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

Not really. Herbivore grazers are important players in any grassland ecosystem. Depending on the species, they can: suppress invasive species, produce disturbance/openings for native plants to grow, reproduce, establish seed, etc., change soil texture or topography, redistribute nutrients, clear out standing biomass which otherwise would contribute to catastrophic fire, stimulate plant life history strategies like bolting and flowering, etc. The decline of the American bison (and replacement by European cattle) coincided with pretty massive changes in North American grasslands.

Not to mention the fact that killing one individual of a small population has disproportionate affects relative to killing one individual of a larger population. The marginal loss is much larger - for genetic diversity (necessary for adapting to environmental change and avoiding inbreeding), per-capita effects on ecosystem function, avoiding chance extinction, etc.

[Epaminondas]

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

Not really. Herbivore grazers are important players in any grassland ecosystem. Depending on the species, they can: suppress invasive species, produce disturbance/openings for native plants to grow, reproduce, establish seed, etc., change soil texture or topography, redistribute nutrients, clear out standing biomass which otherwise would contribute to catastrophic fire, stimulate plant life history strategies like bolting and flowering, etc.

Not to mention the fact that killing one individual of a small population has disproportionate affects relative to killing one individual of a larger population. The marginal loss is much larger - for genetic diversity (necessary for adapting to environmental change and avoiding inbreeding), per-capita effects on ecosystem function, avoiding chance extinction, etc.

Having lived in Mongolia for several years, I can confirm their grassland economy is under heavy threat from progressive loss of diversity. Capitalism having removed Soviet caps on sheep herd sizes only worsened the crisis of overgrazing, robbing wild species of ressources and driving down their numbers.
Climate change is leading to increased bursts of frost (зуд or "dzuud") below -40 Fahrenheit which decimate living creatures.

While wolves and other predators formerly coexisted with a natural quarry of wild gazelles and mountain goats - such as the argali or the Marco Polo -, they are now forced into a losing conflict with domesticated herds manned by armed men.

Among many dire consequences, this has lead to a proliferation of plague-carrying marmots across the grasslands, which both undermine crop production in the North, damage woodlands in the center - the only bulwark against the chilly winter winds -, and hinder horse movement in Southern Gobi where it is most essential to the nomadic herdsmen. Many horses trip, break their legs then die agonisingly in these deep marmot holes.

The loss of revenue is pushing nomads into the capital city, Ulaanbaatar, where surging migration from the improverished countryside is contributing to a devastating rise in pollution. Ulaanbaatar is now the most polluted capital in the world, and for 6 month every year masks must be worn to work there.

In short, reducing the population of wild mountain goats is a factor in rising cancer levels for a city of 1.5M people.

John Dule is admittedly a talented writer and he likes to portray himself as a thinker. But he and his libertarian kin are just solitary types who prefer the loneliness of their mind to discovering the beauties of the world.

[T'Chenka]

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

Not really. Herbivore grazers are important players in any grassland ecosystem. Depending on the species, they can: suppress invasive species, produce disturbance/openings for native plants to grow, reproduce, establish seed, etc., change soil texture or topography, redistribute nutrients, clear out standing biomass which otherwise would contribute to catastrophic fire, stimulate plant life history strategies like bolting and flowering, etc.

Not to mention the fact that killing one individual of a small population has disproportionate affects relative to killing one individual of a larger population. The marginal loss is much larger - for genetic diversity (necessary for adapting to environmental change and avoiding inbreeding), per-capita effects on ecosystem function, avoiding chance extinction, etc.

Having lived in Mongolia for several years, I can confirm their grassland economy is under heavy threat from progressive loss of diversity. Capitalism having removed Soviet caps on sheep herd sizes only worsened the crisis of overgrazing, robbing wild species of ressources and driving down their numbers.
Climate change is leading to increased bursts of frosts (зуд or "dzuud") below -40 Fahrenheit which decimate living creatures.

While wolves and other predators formerly coexisted with a natural quarry of wild gazelles and mountain goats - such as the argali or the Marco Polo -, they are now forced into a losing conflict with domesticated herds manned by armed men.

Among many dire consequences, this has lead to a proliferation of plague-carrying marmots across the grasslands, which both undermine crop production in the North, damage woodlands in the center - the only bulwark against the chilly winter winds -, and hinder horse movement in Southern Gobi where it is most essential to the nomadic herdsmen. Many horses trip and die agonisingly in these deep marmot holes.

The loss of revenue is pushing nomads into the capital city, Ulaanbaatar, where surging migration from the improverished countryside is contributing to a devastating rise in pollution. Ulaanbaatar is now the most polluted capital in the world, and for 6 month every year masks must be worn to work there.

In short, reducing the population of wild mountain goats is a factor in rising cancer levels for a city of 1.5M people.

Smiling John writes reasonably well and likes to think he knows how to reason. But he and his libertarian kin are just curious people who prefer the loneliness of their mind to discovering the beauties of the world.

QED motherf___ers.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Biodiversity is important, but it's outrageous to pretend that this sheep species is somehow integral to the natural order.

Not really. Herbivore grazers are important players in any grassland ecosystem. Depending on the species, they can: suppress invasive species, produce disturbance/openings for native plants to grow, reproduce, establish seed, etc., change soil texture or topography, redistribute nutrients, clear out standing biomass which otherwise would contribute to catastrophic fire, stimulate plant life history strategies like bolting and flowering, etc.

Not to mention the fact that killing one individual of a small population has disproportionate affects relative to killing one individual of a larger population. The marginal loss is much larger - for genetic diversity (necessary for adapting to environmental change and avoiding inbreeding), per-capita effects on ecosystem function, avoiding chance extinction, etc.

Having lived in Mongolia for several years, I can confirm their grassland economy is under heavy threat from progressive loss of diversity. Capitalism having removed Soviet caps on sheep herd sizes only worsened the crisis of overgrazing, robbing wild species of ressources and driving down their numbers.
Climate change is leading to increased bursts of frost (зуд or "dzuud") below -40 Fahrenheit which decimate living creatures.

While wolves and other predators formerly coexisted with a natural quarry of wild gazelles and mountain goats - such as the argali or the Marco Polo -, they are now forced into a losing conflict with domesticated herds manned by armed men.

Among many dire consequences, this has lead to a proliferation of plague-carrying marmots across the grasslands, which both undermine crop production in the North, damage woodlands in the center - the only bulwark against the chilly winter winds -, and hinder horse movement in Southern Gobi where it is most essential to the nomadic herdsmen. Many horses trip, break their legs then die agonisingly in these deep marmot holes.

The loss of revenue is pushing nomads into the capital city, Ulaanbaatar, where surging migration from the improverished countryside is contributing to a devastating rise in pollution. Ulaanbaatar is now the most polluted capital in the world, and for 6 month every year masks must be worn to work there.

In short, reducing the population of wild mountain goats is a factor in rising cancer levels for a city of 1.5M people.

John Dule is admittedly a talented writer and he likes to portray himself as a thinker. But he and his libertarian kin are just solitary types who prefer the loneliness of their mind to discovering the beauties of the world.

If wolves don't have as many argali to eat, wouldn't they be eating more marmots, not less?

[Epaminondas]

If wolves don't have as many argali to eat, wouldn't they be eating more marmots, not less?

Disturbed ecological niches always have complex fallouts but it's surmised that wolves, bears, snow leopard etc. are increasingly being locked out the central grasslands and pushed into the Western mountainous plateaux - where Trump Jr and his ilk were hunting.