Impeachment Megathread Part 3

[GeorgiaModerate]

Bolton also said he went to Barr with his concerns and Barr’s office is calling him a liar
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/john-bolton-went-to-bill-barr-with-concerns-about-giulianis-shadow-foreign-policy-in-ukraine-report/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Fine.  Call them both to testify.

[7,052,770]

Bolton also said he went to Barr with his concerns and Barr’s office is calling him a liar
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/john-bolton-went-to-bill-barr-with-concerns-about-giulianis-shadow-foreign-policy-in-ukraine-report/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Fine.  Call them both to testify.

Yes, if Republicans gave a damn about whether Trump is guilty they would call both. And by all means, be tough on both and if they can cast doubt on Bolton's testimony, so be it - I sure wouldn't put it past that guy to misrepresent what actually happened.

But we have to remember that Republicans aren't trying to prove Trump is innocent, nor are they trying to convince people that Trump's conduct was bad but not impeachment level (the Clinton argument). It's a whole party that simply doesn't care.

[Nyvin]

Alan Dershowitz was on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" last Night and on FOX NEWS Sunday with Chris Wallace and both times he said quote "Even if the Allegations are true against Trump it's not impeachable"

Bottom Line:
Abuse of Power & Obstruction of Congress ain't impeachable offenses. Gotcha! Period! Game Over for House Democrats. Let the American People decide and not Congress for them.

And there is a fundamental Difference between the Clinton and the Trump Impeachment:

Bill Clinton purposefully LIED under OATH before a Grand Jury that he had nothing to do with this Woman (Lewinsky). The Witnesses who have come forward and were investigated by the House didn't do any of this.

Trump's impeachment attorney making a blanket statement of "not impeachable" doesn't really change much of anything you know?

Also - Isn't it pretty sad they can't even come up with an actual defense of what Trump did, they just have to say it's "not bad enough" to be impeached for?

Finally - If this isn't impeachable,  that means that future presidents can solicit election interference from foreign governments by withholding aid money.   How can anyone not see that as a very dangerous precedent?

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanLizza/status/1221594548293586944

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1221594791487705089

[GeorgiaModerate]

In honor of one of the President's favorite recurring tweets...

READ THE MANUSCRIPT!

[Meclazine for Israel]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

[Hindsight was 2020]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

It’s amazing how disingenuous you’ve been about this whole scandal. First off he withheld congressional approved aid without justification and then tried to use said aid to get a country to launch an investigation into his potential presidential opponent just for the political optics. Yes not only are there crimes in doing that but your bank analogy doesn’t even work. It’s more like Trump planned to rob a bank, got his team in place, and was waiting in the van ready to go but someone told the cops so the bank went on lockdown so he had to abandon the mission. Guess what? That’s still a crime

[pppolitics]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

Maybe if you watch new channels other than Fox News, you would know.

[Nyvin]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

You do realize there is no legal defense saying Trump "didn't" do what the Democrats are charging him with,  the legal defense is saying what Trump did wasn't "bad enough" to be impeachable.

Trying to argue Trump did nothing wrong is flat out denying reality at this point.    I hate to be frank, but the bolded parts do nothing but make you look like an idiot.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I've been paying a lot of attention to the right over the last week and they have no defense.

Their defenses are:

• LOL Democrats
• Democrats are so lame
• The whole thing was rigged from the beginning!  Democrats didn't follow the rules!
• This is so f***ing boring and nobody is watching!
• What a waste of time!
• Democrats say they want a "fair trial" but won't let us interrogate the whistleblower, Joe Biden, or Hillary Clinton!
• What a bunch of LOSERS!
• This is a DISASTER for the Democrats!
• Did anyone actually watch that little bitch Adam Schiff testify?  LOL he just wasted his time!
• Scooooore boooooard!  Trump approval hasn't gone down!
• Adam Schiff has big creepy eyes and looks like a pedophile!

Of course not a word of this has anything to do with the actual allegations against Donald Trump.  I think the point is to try to flood the airwaves with all this messaging about Democrats being losers, the trial being a disaster, etc. so that people just hear that and assume, that since everyone is saying it's a disaster, that much be true, without ever investigating for themselves what's actually going on.

[Calthrina950]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1221594791487705089

I made an observation the other day that there are no longer any "Lawrence Hogan Sr."-type Republicans in Congress. And for that matter, we no longer have any Howard Bakers or Barry Goldwaters either. Every Republican is fully on board with the Trump train, from the establishment-friendly, moderate types to the ardent Trumpists and Tea Partiers. It's a shame and a disgrace, as Trump is the least deserving President, of any modern President, of such loyalty.

At any rate, I've definitely become resolved at this point not to vote for Trump-a resolution which I've made plain before-and I may even vote for Joe Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. Trump must be defeated this year.

[Crumpets]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

https://intelligence.house.gov/report/#findings

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6572308/Articles-of-Impeachment.pdf

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1221594791487705089

I made an observation the other day that there are no longer any "Lawrence Hogan Sr."-type Republicans in Congress. And for that matter, we no longer have any Howard Bakers or Barry Goldwaters either. Every Republican is fully on board with the Trump train, from the establishment-friendly, moderate types to the ardent Trumpists and Tea Partiers. It' a shame and a disgrace, as Trump is the least deserving President, of any modern President, of such loyalty.

At any rate, I've definitely become resolved at this point not to vote for Trump-a resolution which I've made plain before-and I may even vote for Joe Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. Trump must be defeated this year.

It’s really ironic how so many of the modern “intellectual” conservatives love to say the party is founded around Goldwater’s ideas but they completely cut out that one of his last messages was “hey guys democrats are our friends who we just have political disagreements with and if you let those tv preachers take over and turn our disagreements into some good vs evil battle our country will go to hell in a hand basket”

[GeneralMacArthur]

At risk of wasting my time.

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

The two charges are abuse of power and obstruction of justice.

Abuse of power:  Trump used the power of the executive to recruit the interference of a foreign power for personal political gain at the expense of the country.  He ordered the executive branch to halt congressionally-approved military aid to a critical ally during wartime, and used the aid halt as blackmail to force Ukraine to interfere in our elections by announcing an investigation into Joe Biden over a Breitbart-fabricated conspiracy theory.

Obstruction of justice:  When he was caught red-handed, Trump issued a blanket order to the entire executive branch to reject all subpoenas and hide all documents from the congressional committees overseeing the investigation.  There was no legal basis for this order, it was simply Trump wanting to obstruct the investigation into himself.  This is the textbook definition of obstruction of justice.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

The Democrats didn't even find out about this until the whistleblower leaked that it was happening.  At that point Trump had already been withholding the aid for months.  He keeps saying "read the transcript" when the transcript itself, which occurred before any Democrats discovered this, directly implicates Trump in blackmailing Zelensky.  So no, this isn't a setup by the Democrats in any way shape or form.  Trump did this to himself.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

They have literally mountains upon mountains of evidence.  Do you not remember just a few weeks ago when we spent an entire week hearing from all these witnesses, including Gordon Sondland, who corroborated this story and provided evidence and directly implicated Trump in both charges?

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

So if I really hate you, and then you go on a shooting spree and murder 100 people and there are 50 eyewitnesses and you confess to the crime on live TV, and I call the cops, they should just hang up the phone and say "well MacArthur really hates you so it must just be a witch hunt"

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

I don't think Adam Schiff has told one single lie in this entire proceeding.  On the other hand, Trump and the Republicans have been caught lying dozens upon dozens of times.  That's why they keep having to change their story while Schiff has kept the same story throughout.
(I realize I'm setting myself up here for you to find one thing Schiff said that's maybe slightly inaccurate, so of course Schiff's entire legal case is a pack of lies and everything Trump has tweeted is 100% true).

[Meclazine for Israel]

At risk of wasting my time.

Not at all. Thanks for the constructive reply.

Watching the impeachment on CSPAN itself is confusing to one with a little legal brain as small as my own.

One of the primary reasons I come to the Atlas forums is to get a real political opinion from real Americans, and when they lay it out so clearly, regardless of whether I agree with it, I take it in, and I do appreciate it.

[Bidenworth2020]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1221594791487705089

I made an observation the other day that there are no longer any "Lawrence Hogan Sr."-type Republicans in Congress. And for that matter, we no longer have any Howard Bakers or Barry Goldwaters either. Every Republican is fully on board with the Trump train, from the establishment-friendly, moderate types to the ardent Trumpists and Tea Partiers. It's a shame and a disgrace, as Trump is the least deserving President, of any modern President, of such loyalty.

At any rate, I've definitely become resolved at this point not to vote for Trump-a resolution which I've made plain before-and I may even vote for Joe Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. Trump must be defeated this year.

Glad to see you have finally come around, but the above has been true for almost 10 years now (in regard to the lack of principled, moderate republicans), if not longer.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://twitter.com/DavidJollyFL/status/1221575780494381058?s=19

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Long breakdown on Twitter of the whole Trump fundraiser recorded and released by Parnas:
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1221537022680207364

Adding: An excellent point made in the replies:
https://twitter.com/MrsDSF/status/1221539073539674113

[7,052,770]

https://twitter.com/DavidJollyFL/status/1221575780494381058?s=19

For those of you who don't recognize the name, this is a former Republican Congressman who was defeated for reelection in 2016.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Long breakdown on Twitter of the whole Trump fundraiser recorded and released by Parnas

Please do not post Seth Abramson on here.  That guy has been posting that Trump will be impeached, indicted, implicated for murder and other such things for three years now and nothing has come of it.

He also made a fool of himself during the 2016 primaries where he got on the H.A. Goodman bandwagon of writing daily "Sanders' victory is imminent" articles, and then when Sanders lost he claimed that it was "experimental journalism" where you write what you want to be true instead of what's actually true.  I am not making this up.

[Calthrina950]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1221594791487705089

I made an observation the other day that there are no longer any "Lawrence Hogan Sr."-type Republicans in Congress. And for that matter, we no longer have any Howard Bakers or Barry Goldwaters either. Every Republican is fully on board with the Trump train, from the establishment-friendly, moderate types to the ardent Trumpists and Tea Partiers. It's a shame and a disgrace, as Trump is the least deserving President, of any modern President, of such loyalty.

At any rate, I've definitely become resolved at this point not to vote for Trump-a resolution which I've made plain before-and I may even vote for Joe Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. Trump must be defeated this year.

Glad to see you have finally come around, but the above has been true for almost 10 years now (in regard to the lack of principled, moderate republicans), if not longer.

I've never been a Trump supporter, and I've made clear for some years now that I didn't vote for him in 2016. I've also indicated previously that I wasn't going to vote for him this year. I'm just saying that this whole impeachment episode has reinforced my conviction not to do so.

[pbrower2a]

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

It sounds like a scripted setup by the cops (Democrats) where they think they have a bank robber (Trump), don't know if a bank (Ukraine) was even robbed, don't know where he was and let's throw into Court and see if he confesses simply because we want him off the street.

Throwing this all into the senate without charges or evidence just seems way out of whack with a normal judicial process.

It just seems like the Democrats have had this fantasy since 2016. This is their big moment in the sun, and only time will tell if this pure politically motivated witch-hunt will pay dividends in November.

For if it does not, Adam Schiff will go down in history as a liar who gave the unlovable President Trump another 4 years in office.

The real offense isn't getting the money; the crime is in making a criminal threat even if the intended victim fails to comply or the crook leaves empty-handed (So the crook drops the money or flees without it when he hears the siren of a fire truck; he still brandished a weapon in front of a teller or left a threatening note, and such is the crime).

President Trump made an unconscionable threat which in any other context would be criminal -- so it almost certainly is criminal.  

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

@realDonaldTrump, Mon. 1/27/20, 12:18am

I NEVER told John Bolton that the aid to Ukraine was tied to investigations into Democrats, including the Bidens. In fact, he never complained about this at the time of his very public termination. If John Bolton said this, it was only to sell a book. With that being said, the

......transcripts of my calls with President Zelensky are all the proof that is needed, in addition to the fact that President Zelensky & the Foreign Minister of Ukraine said there was no pressure and no problems. Additionally, I met with President Zelensky at the United Nations

......(Democrats said I never met) and released the military aid to Ukraine without any conditions or investigations - and far ahead of schedule. I also allowed Ukraine to purchase Javelin anti-tank missiles. My Administration has done far more than the previous Administration.

The deflection is painfully obvious when he says "with that being said...."

[emailking]

https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanLizza/status/1221594548293586944

I'm not sure it matters. Lawyers are allowed to lie to the jury. They are not allowed to convince or trick a witness into lying. Maybe the lying to Congress statute could apply.

I am still trying to figure out what the crime is with which he is charged.

He's not charged with a crime and he doesn't have to be to be impeached. Abuse of power and obstruction of Congress are misdemeanors.