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January 28, 2020, 09:12:12 am
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  Women Now Outnumber Men on U.S. Workforce
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Author Topic: Women Now Outnumber Men on U.S. Workforce  (Read 757 times)
Grand Mufti of Northern Virginia
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« on: January 11, 2020, 11:00:22 am »

And this time, this looks to be a permanent change:

Women Now Outnumber Men On U.S. Payrolls

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(CT) The Free North
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2020, 04:18:13 pm »

Good news I suppose. We need to ensure more access to employment for women abroad as well, particularly in developing nations.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2020, 11:07:47 pm »

America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 11:22:09 am »

America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)

No one is stopping men from becoming nurses
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 11:51:17 am »

Quote from: Del Tachi link=topic=353949.msg7126340#msg7126340

date=1578888467 uid=5389
America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)

No one is stopping men from becoming nurses

Just like there are certain positions that men are naturally more-suited for men (i.e., firefighters and miners, due to physical requirements), women are naturally more suited for service-oriented positions due to their generally higher levels of social intelligence and empathy.

Now, I'm not saying that men shouldn't be nurses or teachers.  The U.S. is projected to have more openings than applicants in these fields for several decades to come, and opening these opportunities to men is going to take a concerted effort to challenge and redefine societal gender roles.

Saying "no one is stopping men from becoming nurses" is akin to saying "no one is stopping women from becoming firefighters", and I ask you to examine the double standard present in what you're saying.

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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 05:49:32 pm »
« Edited: January 15, 2020, 05:56:21 pm by Tintrlvr »

Quote from: Del Tachi link=topic=353949.msg7126340#msg7126340

date=1578888467 uid=5389
America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)

No one is stopping men from becoming nurses

Just like there are certain positions that men are naturally more-suited for men (i.e., firefighters and miners, due to physical requirements), women are naturally more suited for service-oriented positions due to their generally higher levels of social intelligence and empathy.

Now, I'm not saying that men shouldn't be nurses or teachers.  The U.S. is projected to have more openings than applicants in these fields for several decades to come, and opening these opportunities to men is going to take a concerted effort to challenge and redefine societal gender roles.

Saying "no one is stopping men from becoming nurses" is akin to saying "no one is stopping women from becoming firefighters", and I ask you to examine the double standard present in what you're saying.



Well, there are people stopping women from becoming firefighters in the sense that entrenched sexism definitely results in bias against hiring and promoting women as firefighters. And what you are saying has some minimal accuracy in that it is true that people with your outdated and biased views on men and the fundamental abilities of men as caretakers do sometimes discriminate against men in hiring nurses. However, for men in nursing (and other women-dominated fields) in particular, the bigger issue is a lack of male applicants. Men who are actually nurses routinely are as successful as women who are nurses, though this is not so true for women who are actually firefighters - i.e., the external bias and discrimination against women as firefighters is stronger than the same against men as nurses.

But just as significantly, you're complaining about declining job opportunities for men. Yet the problem for men in employment isn't (at a macro level) a lack of opportunities: There are a ton of jobs available right now that would hire men if men were applying. The problem is a lack of interest by men in the places where there are opportunities. If women were typically not discriminated against in employment in traditionally men-dominated jobs, and firefighting jobs were hiring en masse, and women were complaining about a lack of jobs for them, but despite those counterfactuals women still weren't applying to be firefighters, the same argument would apply in reverse, but that isn't the reality. (I'll also grant that there is a separate argument about the general declining quality of jobs overall, but that shouldn't affect the gender balance of the workforce, so it's not material to this particular discussion.)

So, no, you are not drawing a reasonable equivalence.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 03:38:09 am »

Good, more women working makes them less dependend on their husbands or partners. But women are still way underrepresented in corporate boards.
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GM Ninja0428
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 09:54:17 am »

America has more women than men so slightly more women in the workforce is probably about what it should be.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 01:28:04 pm »

America has more women than men so slightly more women in the workforce is probably about what it should be.

Except the surplus of women in the population is almost entirely due to retirement-age women.  Men actually outnumber women in the working-age population.

Of course, this doesn't consider the 1.37 million working-age men currently in jail or prison.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 02:01:38 pm »

Quote from: Del Tachi link=topic=353949.msg7126340#msg7126340

date=1578888467 uid=5389
America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)

No one is stopping men from becoming nurses

Just like there are certain positions that men are naturally more-suited for men (i.e., firefighters and miners, due to physical requirements), women are naturally more suited for service-oriented positions due to their generally higher levels of social intelligence and empathy.

Now, I'm not saying that men shouldn't be nurses or teachers.  The U.S. is projected to have more openings than applicants in these fields for several decades to come, and opening these opportunities to men is going to take a concerted effort to challenge and redefine societal gender roles.

Saying "no one is stopping men from becoming nurses" is akin to saying "no one is stopping women from becoming firefighters", and I ask you to examine the double standard present in what you're saying.



Well, there are people stopping women from becoming firefighters in the sense that entrenched sexism definitely results in bias against hiring and promoting women as firefighters. And what you are saying has some minimal accuracy in that it is true that people with your outdated and biased views on men and the fundamental abilities of men as caretakers do sometimes discriminate against men in hiring nurses. However, for men in nursing (and other women-dominated fields) in particular, the bigger issue is a lack of male applicants.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the lack of male applicants in traditionally-female career paths (i.e., nursing) is also because of "entrenched sexism"?  Men and boys are not given the same opportunities to pursue education or training in these fields because it has been historically characterized as women's work.  Changing that characterization has to be a significant policy goal for our 21st Century, post-Industrial economy, but let's not criticize men who are boxed in by centuries' old standards.

Quote
Men who are actually nurses routinely are as successful as women who are nurses, though this is not so true for women who are actually firefighters - i.e., the external bias and discrimination against women as firefighters is stronger than the same against men as nurses.

Care to demonstrate the relevance of this point?  or provide a credible source?  Gender pay disparities exist across all occupations, but nursing is actually one of the most equitable (women nurses earned 91% of male nurses in 2017).  Moreover, there's ample empirical evidence suggesting the the gender pay gap is primarily the result of a "motherhood penalty".  Such a penalty is not "external bias and discrimination" but rather exists due to the preconceived gender attitudes and norms, similar to the attitudes that discourage men from seeking service-sector employment.   

Quote
Yet the problem for men in employment isn't (at a macro level) a lack of opportunities: There are a ton of jobs available right now that would hire men if men were applying. The problem is a lack of interest by men in the places where there are opportunities.

This "lack of interest" results from men and boys being socially conditioned not to consider or train for service-oriented positions. 

Quote
If women were typically not discriminated against in employment in traditionally men-dominated jobs, and firefighting jobs were hiring en masse, and women were complaining about a lack of jobs for them, but despite those counterfactuals women still weren't applying to be firefighters, the same argument would apply in reverse, but that isn't the reality.

You really are begging this question.  How have you demonstrated that there isn't discrimination against men in traditionally female positions like nursing, teaching and clerical work?  You ever seem to have admitted it here:

Quote
people with your outdated and biased views on men and the fundamental abilities of men as caretakers do sometimes discriminate against men in hiring nurses

So yes, it is a double standard when you expect the constraints of traditional gender norms and expectations to not apply equally to men and women.


 

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Rep. tack50 (Lab-Lincoln)
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2020, 04:54:33 pm »

Honestly it is stuff like this and related reports like "Women now outnumber men in college degrees" that make me genuinely think the income pay gap will gradually go away and possibly even reverse over the 21st century.

I would not be massively surprised if by the time I am retires I start seeing reports like "Men make 90 cents for every dollar a woman makes" and what not.

Also considering social stereotypes and what not, I wonder if this will also help towards combating sexism and what not.

America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)

While I agree with the second half of the statement, I would disagree that said transition naturally benefits women. The service sector is such a large one that you can easily find jobs for both men and women there.

A big example of a rising and male dominated career is computer science and programming for example.
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Devout Centrist
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2020, 12:40:20 pm »
« Edited: January 21, 2020, 02:06:05 pm by Stuck with Sanders »

America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)
I wouldn't say this has been to the benefit of women; these service sector jobs tend to pay less, offer poor job security, and leave workers underemployed.

Now, I do agree that the lack of meaningful work for men has contributed to social dysfunction. The root cause of this misery is economic dislocation. The destruction of unions, social safety nets, and deregulation have all contributed to this terrible trend.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2020, 03:59:30 pm »

America's transition from an labor-based (i.e., mining, manufacturing, farming, etc.) economy to a service-dominated economy has naturally benefited women, and the decline in meaningful work for American men is a major contributor to our current social woes (i.e., mass shootings, White nationalism, opioid epidemic, etc.)
I wouldn't say this has been to the benefit of women; these service sector jobs tend to pay less, offer poor job security, and leave workers underemployed.

Now, I do agree that the lack of meaningful work for men has contributed to social dysfunction. The root cause of this misery is economic dislocation. The destruction of unions, social safety nets, and deregulation have all contributed to this terrible trend.

True, but the same American men were gung ho for Reagan/Bush/Trump/Scott Walker.....?
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